[@ChrisWillx] A Shocking Turn in the War on Men - Richard Reeves

Link: https://youtu.be/5E3sDYiOVGs

Duration: 125 min

Short Summary

Rick Reeves, author of a 2022 book on boys and men endorsed by Obama in 2024 and founder of the American Institute for Boys and Men, discusses the surge of political momentum around men's issues following Democrats' losses among young male voters in the 2024 election. The conversation covers structural crises facing boys from literacy through employment, evolving masculinity discourse including the "look-maxing" trend, contested claims about fertility decline, and the transformative role of fatherhood. Survey data from the Institute for Family Studies challenges alarmist narratives, showing 68% of young men want marriage, 62% want fatherhood, and 89% believe manhood requires sacrifice.

Key Quotes

1. "Activists are always psychologically reluctant to succeed." (00:07:10)
2. "What we want to say is we need you. That's the message I think most young men need to hear is we need you. Society still needs you." (00:41:33)
3. "it is much less about the wife you choose than it is about the husband you become." (00:41:51)
4. "every male needs to construct himself into something useful in order to matter and be a part of the and is that a bad thing? Is that part of the drive for men to sort of push for mastery and conquer and progress and improvement?" (00:42:42)

Detailed Summary

Episode Overview

Rick Reeves, author of a 2022 book on boys and men endorsed by Michelle Obama in 2024, and founder of the American Institute for Boys and Men, provides a comprehensive analysis of the emerging political and cultural momentum around men's issues. The conversation examines structural crises facing boys from literacy through employment, the evolving masculinity discourse including the "look-maxing" trend, contested fertility claims, and transformative survey data challenging alarmist narratives about young men.

Political Momentum on Boys and Men's Issues

Following the 2024 election, in which Democrats lost men and especially young men in significant numbers, Democratic inboxes reportedly filled with party members seeking guidance on the male voter gap—triggering a wave of political action that began in earnest after November 2024. Governors Newsom (California), Whitmer (Michigan), Wesmore (Maryland), and Cox (Utah) launched executive orders and programs covering K-12 education, employment, and mental health for boys and men, with several of these governors noted as potential presidential candidates raising questions about political motivation.

• California launched a Male Service Challenge targeting 10,000 new male mentors, coaches, and service volunteers.
• Virginia is on track to create the first state-level commission on boys and men, which would institutionalize the issue in long-term policy; Washington state came close but was blocked or delayed.
• Two congressional bills were introduced: one to create a men's health strategy and office, and the Men Matter Bill aimed at mental health support for men after fatherhood.
• The UK released its first-ever men's health strategy put forward by Wes Streeting and held a parliamentary debate on International Men's Day featuring MPs telling dad jokes, organized by a group called Dad Shift.
• A UK think tank on boys and men's issues was also established.
• Rick expresses concern this momentum could be a passing political trend rather than sustained institutional commitment, arguing the ultimate goal is for men's issues to become so normalized that policymakers say, "We're already working on it—what are you talking about?"

Structural Crisis: Boys' Literacy to Employment

Boys' literacy rates are described as "falling through the floor," identified as the foundational upstream problem driving downstream crises in education, employment, income, social belonging, and fatherhood. Rick uses a "relay race" analogy: cultural messaging matters at the start and end, but the big structural movers—school, employment, and mental health support—come in the middle.

• The structural chain is framed as: literacy → education/apprenticeships → employment → social place → fatherhood → meaning and income.
• Approximately 14 million men in the US are currently not in education, employment, or training (NEET status).
• Early 20th-century urbanization triggered a comparable boy crisis, which produced a massive civic response almost overnight, including the Boy Scouts, Boys and Girls Clubs, and Big Brothers Big Sisters—all staffed primarily by men.
• Today, youth-serving organizations have significantly more women volunteers than men, representing a stark reversal from a century ago.

Masculinity Discourse, the Manosphere, and Look-Maxing

Mainstream culture, by discussing masculinity almost exclusively with the prefix "toxic," caused the word itself to "code left"—leaving young men to expect criticism whenever they hear it, even unprefixed. Pollster John DeVulp coined the term "masculinity vertigo" to describe the contradictory daily messages young men receive: one day told they aren't masculine enough (work out, be dominant), the next told they're too masculine (cry more, go to therapy). The cultural vacuum created by this was filled by figures like Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, Andrew Tate, and Nick Fuentes.

• Rick argues the message young men need is "We need you"—not pity, but acknowledgment of societal need.
• The manosphere is described as evolving through three waves: first pick-up artists, second a "gentlemanhood" focus, and third look-maxing—a trend approximately 6 months old focused on extreme masculine physical features (protruding cheekbones, pronounced mandibles) oriented entirely toward male-to-male intrasexual competition, not female attraction.
• Look-maxing represents a "sexier version of the black pill"—genuine disregard for women and mating altogether, unlike earlier manosphere content that was still female-attraction-coded.
• Research shows women prefer average or slightly feminized faces with masculine bodies, making look-maxing counterproductive for attraction.
• Male body dysmorphia is on track to overtake female body dysmorphia within the next decade.
• "Masculinity vertigo" describes men not knowing what behavior is expected of them—"masculine Monday, soft Tuesday, tyrant Wednesday, therapy Thursday, yoga Friday."
• Conflicting messages don't convince people of one thing; they make people immune to being convinced, creating apathy—a goal of disinformation campaigns in information warfare.
• There's a push (conflicting messages) and pull (screens, video games, porn) on young men happening simultaneously, both pushing toward disengagement.
• Crime going down while more young men are disengaged is described as "historically unprecedented"—a silent retreat via screens rather than streets.
• The speaker frames the choice as between "more useless men or more dangerous men," preferring incompetent but peaceful over both.

Fatherhood: Data, Transformation, and Cultural Framing

New research shows the biggest increase in hands-on fathering in roughly half a century: millennial fathers spend as much time with their children as silent generation or baby boomer mothers did; primary childcare by dads is now as high as it was done by moms in 1985. Fatherhood is described as "the last male institution"—one that transforms men from the inside out, including neurologically, with Darby Saxby having a forthcoming book titled Dad Brain on this topic.

• When comparing full-time working parents, dads average ~45 hours/week paid work vs. moms at ~35 hours, while moms do ~8 more hours of unpaid work—totaling roughly 60 hours each.
• Researcher Suzanne Bianki described dual-income household contributions as "amazingly similar."
• Studies claiming women do 25–30% more housework use a flawed definition of "full-time" (35+ hours), while full-time working dads actually average more paid hours.
• Rick pushes back against "deadbeat or doofus" deficit framing of fathers as bad social science, arguing fatherhood is a social and cultural invention (citing Margaret Mead's "invention of fatherhood") that societies must actively construct and maintain.
• Rising male childlessness is identified as a significant concern.
• A philosopher used the analogy that explaining parenthood to a non-parent is like explaining to a human what it is like to be a vampire, illustrating the profound transformation parenthood causes.

Paternity Leave Debate and Gender Dynamics

Scott Galloway and Derek Thompson had a debate on Galloway's podcast about paternity leave, with Galloway arguing men should not be at births (comparing it to men smoking cigarettes outside) while Thompson argued men need paternity leave to prevent gender inequality. Darby Saxby wrote "Dad Brain" arguing the evidence on fathers in the birthing room is mixed and inconclusive due to its unprecedented nature.

• Men being in the birthing room is a relatively recent cultural change emerging in the 1970s–80s, only about 30–40 years old.
• A speaker argues for a "pro-dad argument" based on dads being valuable to kids separate from gender equality framing.
• Kelsea Ballerini's song "I Sit in Parks" about regretting her music career over having children sparked cultural discussion, with the comment section filled with women expressing agreement.
• The song describes being in a relationship at age 30 with a partner aged 37 who wanted children immediately while she wanted to freeze her eggs.
• One speaker frames this as culturally rebellious—more so than typical pop songs promoting casual relationships—signaling a shift in mainstream sentiment.

Fertility Rates: Debunking Myths

The intuitive claim that women entering the workforce causes fertility decline is called "a claim that fits your prior and is wrong": from 1975 to 2005, women's labor force participation rose 20 percentage points while total fertility actually rose from ~1.88 to 2.1. Women's labor force participation leveled off around 2005–2007 and has been roughly flat since, while the fertility rate fell—disconfirming workforce participation as the primary driver.

• Jennifer Schuber's book Toxic Demography argues the primary cause of fertility decline is a lack of gender equality, citing South Korea and Japan as examples.
• A key drop in fertility reflects the decline in teen pregnancy (largely accidental, non-coupled)—not a decline in married-couple births.
• The 2007–2008 financial crisis acted as a ratchet, suddenly accelerating delayed first births in a way that never snapped back, driven by dual-income household dependency on economic stability.
• Stephen's "vitality curve" models the age distribution of when people seek family formation; a later and flatter curve makes it harder for people to find partners at the same life stage, raising childlessness even without any change in women's work patterns.
• Data modeling suggests that even if women stopped working, birth rates would not fundamentally change unless family formation also happened sooner—making declining births primarily a timing problem, not a female workforce problem.
• Singapore's government paid for births of the first two children but not the third, demonstrating how pronatalist policies can have built-in limits.

Institute for Family Studies Survey Data

An Institute for Family Studies survey of 2,000 young men aged 18–29 reveals that 68% of unmarried men want to get married, 62% of childless young men want to be a father, and 89% say manhood requires willingness to sacrifice for others—challenging manosphere narratives. Less than half of men aged 24–29 feel like adults, with traditional benchmarks (marriage, parenthood, full-time work, completing education) most related to feeling adult.

• Young men's #1 role model is mother (79%), followed by father (69%); Andrew Tate ranked last among all prominent figures.
• 59% are not in a romantic relationship but 74% of those are open to dating.
• Trade school graduates employed full-time at 77% versus college graduates at 80%—nearly identical rates.
• The marriage rate among college-educated American women remains at approximately 90% for the last 40–50 years with no significant collapse.
• The collapse in marriage has been among those without a college degree, representing a large class gap.
• Approximately 20% of college-educated women marry men without a college degree.
• Pew Research data shows the top reason people don't have kids is they "just don't feel ready yet," followed by "couldn't find the right person."
• An NBC poll found that the number one priority for Trump-voting men was family and kids, with men now slightly more likely than women to say they want to get married and have kids.
• Men are much more affected by relationship breakup and unemployment than women; negative economic and social shocks damage male well-being more than female well-being.

College Gender Ratios and Title IX

There is no strong evidence for a thumb on the scale against men in college admissions. The Higher Education Male Achievement Collaborative works with colleges worrying about gender ratios reaching 60/40 or 65/35. Title IX carves out private undergraduate colleges to preserve single-sex colleges like Wellesley, and it is an open secret that it is somewhat easier to get into elite private colleges if male.

• When colleges hit 60/40 female-to-male ratios, female applications also drop because the dating market is not attractive for women on campuses with twice as many women as men.
• Empirical data shows there are twice as many majority male counties today as 20–30 years ago, largely due to out-migration by women.
• At a New York dating singles mixer, women were charged $100 to attend while men entered free, yet the ratio was still 3-to-1 women to men.
• A paper examining five milestones to adulthood found that 20 years ago men were more likely to hit them, but now women are more likely.

Media Coverage and the "Adolescence" Effect

Politico published a four-part series on the crisis of boys and men, notably written entirely by women journalists. A Netflix documentary by Louis Theroux on young men was released (filmed through 2025), described as his "final video game boss," covering OnlyFans, conspiracy theorists, and financial grifts. Ross Kemp released a three-to-five part documentary series, likely spurred by the drama Adolescence. UK political leader Kemi Badenoch was publicly criticized on morning TV for not having watched Adolescence—described as a fictional drama, not a documentary—called the first time in British history a politician was criticized for not watching television.

• The show Adolescence is described as functioning like an "ideological Rorschach test," with mainstream audiences interpreting it uniformly in ways Rick views as damaging to the debate around boys and men.
• William Costello told Ross Kemp that the estimated total number of incel killings worldwide is five—not per year, but five total—a crucial counterpoint to sensationalized coverage.
• The only media coverage from Obama's podcast was a brief discussion about marital difficulties in the first 3 minutes; the remaining one-hour conversation about challenges of boys and men was largely ignored.
• The speaker identifies online streaming and YouTube as doing the worst job providing reasonable voices on issues of boys and men, naming Arthur Brooks, Scott Galloway, Rob Henderson, William Costello, and Mack Murphy as reasonable voices running "flat pretty quick."

Gender Relations, Dating, and "Zero-Sum Empathy"

Rick argues that young women on the left are told life is hard because of patriarchy and men, while young men on the right are told life is hard because of woke feminists and women—both sides being encouraged to blame each other for real structural problems, which Rick calls "a colossal waste of political energy and not true." Rick wrote about "zero-sum empathy": if you don't care about boys and men falling behind but complain about a lack of good male partners, you are creating the very problem you're complaining about.

• The feminist movement is described as slowly realizing that demonizing men is not a good strategy.
• Rick disagrees with framing care for boys and men as valuable only instrumentally (i.e., "because it's good for women"); the American Institute for Boys and Men holds that men deserve concern on their own terms.
• Melinda French Gates is cited as a supporter of this position, believing women and girls are harmed when boys and men struggle.
• Rick argues algorithmic dating apps represent an evolutionary mismatch, as ancestral humans formed relationships in small groups through mutual acquaintance—workplace and friend-of-a-friend introductions are argued to be more effective.
• Political polarization is flagged as a growing barrier to cross-gender relationships.
• Josh Hawley, Megan Kelly, DeSantis, and Ben Shapiro all condemned Andrew Tate during his return.
• Country music is discussed as representing mainstream culture while outlets like the New York Times and CNN represent a peripheral counterculture.

Activist Psychology and the Risk of Progress Denial

Rabbi David Walp is cited for the observation that activists are often "psychologically reluctant to succeed" because their identity becomes tied to the struggle itself, making genuine progress hard to accept as a win. Men's rights advocates are described as small, underfunded, grievance-fueled groups that tend to dismiss even significant policy wins (executive orders, commissions) as insincere—an example of this psychological reluctance. Rick explicitly states he wants to win: to make men's issues so mainstream and boring that they no longer require advocacy.

• The speaker predicts a growing moral panic around young men following the "Adolescence" series and Louis Theroux documentary, framing young men as being led astray by bad actors.
• Rick critiques deficit-framing by left figures like Scott Galloway, who characterized young men as "in the basement vaping and playing video games."
• The goal is for boys and men's issues to become institutionalized to the point where they no longer require dedicated advocacy to maintain.

Full Transcript

Show transcript

What has changed or how has the debate
about boys and men adapted since we last
spoke? What's new? I think when we last
spoke, I was still frustrated that there
was no sort of political space for this.
I think people have become aware things
aren't great with boys and men. There
was raised awareness of it, but I still
felt maybe particularly on the center
left that it was difficult to actually
do anything about it. And that's
changed. I used to say, one of my
talking points used to be that it was
very hard to get people, especially on
the political left, to actually do
anything about this problem. First of
all, we have to get them to talk about
it. A, it's a problem. B, we can talk
about it. And then C, we can do
something about it. And I can't say that
anymore. We've got governors, Governor
Nuome, Governor Whitmer, Governor
Wesmore in Maryland, also Governor
Spencer Cox in Utah, all of whom have
got pretty serious initiatives now to
try and promote boys and men. We've got
as as I'm speaking to you now, two bills
have just been introduced to Congress to
create a men's health strategy and
office and to help men with their mental
health after fatherhood, right? The men
matter bill. And there are a bunch of
stuff happening in states. And so I
can't credibly say anymore, you know
what, no one's paying any attention to
this. I can't sort of say anymore like
you're shouting into the wilderness. And
I used to say like I'm banging my head
against the brick wall, especially on
Democrat side of the aisle. That is just
not true anymore. And there's some
politics behind that. Of course, I will
I I think it I have to be honest that I
felt like I was banging my head against
the brick wall with Democrats until
November 2024
>> and then there was an election and then
my inbox started filling up with
Democrats
>> because they saw how much they'd fallen
behind with men, especially young men. I
mean, they can read a poll and there's
no question that one of the things that
happened in the 24 election was that
Democrats lost men and especially young
men in a very very big way. And I don't
think it's a coincidence that many of
the Democrats I've just mentioned and
that we're working with are very often
also mentioned as potential presidential
candidates. And so they they realize
that we can't win without young men.
>> Uh so I'm not going to lie, I think
there's a political dimension to this.
But I don't unlike many people I don't
blame politicians for doing politics,
right? So some of the more men's rightsy
people have said about Governor Nuome's
initiative for example, which is a
serious initiative. What is it? Uh so he
signed an executive order last year
saying telling his administration to
come back to him with comprehensive
plans to help boys and men in K12
education, employment, and especially
mental health. He's already done a male
service challenge. She's done a call to
get 10,000 more men in California into
service, into mentoring, into coaching.
Um, they're following that up with a big
push on getting more men into teaching,
like male role models in the classroom
would be a good idea. And it was very
interesting that the men's rightsy
folks, if I can use that language for
now, although I'm on the more
conservative side of it, they're like,
"Oh, he's just he's just being he's just
doing politics. He's just realized that
the Democrats have lost young men and so
he's just doing stuff to try and win
their votes back." like and why is that
a bad thing? Isn't that how democracies
are supposed to work? Uh and so I just
can't say it anymore. I think it's
there's real progress on this. It's
serious. Not all of it's making it into
the culture war, but that doesn't mean
that it's not good. In fact, most of
it's not in the culture war. It's not
being discussed generally and podcasts
or um or even on cable TV, but it
doesn't mean it's not happening.
>> How much is it? Is it a good first step
or is this a really significant move?
>> It's a significant move in the sense
that it's the first time we've seen like
serious political figures and policy
makers making serious efforts to address
the problem.
>> Right. Okay. So, it's a it's a it's a a
significant move in the same way as
firing the first shot of a war is a
significant move. It's the first thing
that happens and from that it suggests
that more will come after.
>> That's right. So, the question is is
there substance behind
>> sufficient yet?
>> No. And I think part of my role and part
of my institute's role is to hold these
people to account. Is to say, "Okay, you
said you were going to do that." Yeah,
you said you're going to do this. Great.
6 months later, we're going to be like,
"Did you do that?
>> Where is the initiative to get more men
into mental health care?" Uh, Governor,
what what did happen? Did you get 10,000
more men into service? Uh, Governor
Newsome, uh, did you uh increase uh
access to mental health care and
paternity leave? Governor Moore, yes or
no? Right. So, I'm not certainly not
saying it's enough, but it is a lot more
than we had 3 or 4 years ago. I mean, 3
or 4 years ago, you couldn't even get
people particularly on that side of the
aisle even to talk about this problem.
>> When did your book come out?
>> 2022.
>> Okay. So, pretty much bang on that. And
when did Obama endorse it?
>> 2024.
>> Okay. Right. So, you're sort of tracking
this journey over time.
>> Yeah. And honestly, it's been for us
then, we've suddenly got a pivot and
say, "Okay, we've now got policy makers
coming to us saying, "Okay, I got it.
What shall I do?" Wait, wait, wait, hold
on. that was on our 2029 plan, right? We
didn't quite expect to catch up this
quickly. And that's obviously a good
problem to have, but we have had to
pivot and say, okay, how do we actually
help these governors or these senators
or these legislators do something about
it? And my worry, honestly, is that this
will just have a moment. Either it will
be driven by the politics or it'll be
driven by suddenly there's this issue,
right? Boys and men are being discussed
in a way that they were before.
>> Sexy to talk about it.
>> Yeah. Where are we going to be 5 years
from now? 5 years from now, it might be,
I don't know, something else, right?
because these things do have their
moments and the question I'm asking
myself is what will I be able to appoint
to that's still standing that's still
here and so actually Virginia is a good
example Virginia is if the governor new
governor signs it going to create the
first commission on boys and men
>> to sit alongside the commission on women
and girls now it's just a government
commission in the state you might say
great but what that means is that the
issues of boys and men will be at the
table
>> in policym in Virginia in a way that
they weren't for and that will still be
there 5 years from now if that happens,
right? That's going to get line item.
It's going to be real. It's going to be
institutionalized.
>> And my whole thing, I think we've talked
about this before, is I want this issue
to become boring. I want this issue to
be mainstream.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Guys are falling
behind. We've heard it. We've heard it.
Like, we know we're working on it. We've
got it
>> kind of. Yeah. In fact, and and I want
people to say, well, that's why we've
got this office of men's health and
that's why we've created this that's why
we've got this big push on. We're doing
it. What are you talking about?
>> Yeah. It's mom coming upstairs and
telling you to clean your room when
you're got the hoover beds already made.
>> Yeah. Exactly. Well, you said that the
men's rights types
>> Yeah.
>> don't actually want to win. What do you
mean?
>> Well, I've just sort of noticed that
when something does happen, something
and there was very nearly a commission
in Washington state, I've mentioned the
governor's uh moves, is that sometimes
what will happen with the folks, some of
whom have been in this field for a long
time, and I would say that they come at
this from a more conservative or
sometimes even a reactionary
perspective.
It's like they tend to dismiss these
efforts. They'll say, "Oh, sure. There's
been an executive order. Sure, they're
creating a commission on boys and men,
but they'll put their people on it or
they don't really mean it."
>> Are these people inside of government,
the men's rights?
>> No. No. These are advocates. These are
activists.
>> Okay. Like commentators.
>> Yes. Or people that have been like,
there are various groups out there. They
tend to be small and not that well
funded and honestly quite often fueled
by grievances. Not necessarily
illegitimate grievances. I don't want to
be misunderstood, but I'm on various,
you know, conversations with them. And I
I heard this rabbi, uh, I think it's
David Walp is his name on a podcast the
other day, and he said something really
struck me. He said, "Activists are
always psychologically reluctant to
succeed."
>> Mhm.
>> Because there's something about your
identity and your purpose that is tied
up to your own failure. If you succeed,
you'll have to start saying, "Great,
we've done it. Now I have to find some
new identity. If you've actually wrapped
up your identity in the sense that the
whole of society is stacked against men,
there's been a feminist conspiracy
against men. No one cares against men.
I've spent decades saying this. And then
suddenly people do start caring about
men and they do start doing stuff about
men. You've either got to say oh that's
not true anymore
and change your identity or say no no
that can't be true. But I think that's
true for like LGBTQ activists like
climate. and just like basically people
can't take a win anymore, right? People
can't say that's a win. It may not be
perfect, but it's a win. Has to be glass
half empty rather than glass half full.
I think one of the reasons for that is
that people worry if they are too
grateful for a success. It's not going
to continue to push the process forward.
It's the same reason that hard charging
overachiever type A people refuse to let
themselves feel too much pleasure when
they succeed because my displeasure is
exactly the fuel that keeps me going.
And right, it's not too dissimilar with
climate the climate crisis. Not enough
is done because well maybe if I stop now
even if lots has been done it'll slow
down or it'll reverse or people will
forget. So now that we've got the front
foot we must keep going. That would be
the more virtuous way to put it. I also
agree there's a a fascinating graph if
you look at the um uses of the word
racism in the New York Times over the
last 20 years and you compare it to how
much racism is actually happening. The
the two lines just have nothing in
common and going completely opposite
direction. It's like some insane
multiples times increase in the word
racism
>> because lots of people made their
careers around identifying racism. So
you concept creep out things like
racism.
>> Yeah. You end up slaying smaller and
smaller dragons,
>> which makes your cause less and less
legitimate.
>> Yeah. Which makes it easier for your
opponents then to say, "Actually, that's
kind of silly." And so, in the end, I
don't think it works.
>> And I said, I don't want to I want to be
balanced about this because I remember
getting an email, I think, from the
human uh human rights uh what are they
called? H um and it was something like
along the lines of there's never been a
worse time to be trans in America. And
this was two months after Gorsuch had
written his really, I think, incredible
civil rights victory to include trans
people under the sex discrimination law.
I mean, that was a massive civil rights
victory for the trans community. And it
was almost like, yeah, we did get that,
but that but look at this terrible thing
over here. And I don't want to be
misunderstood. I don't want to suggest
there aren't still challenges for trans
people. But the idea that after
extraordinary civil rights victory, I
mean, really, no one saw that coming,
especially from that Supreme Court. They
couldn't just take that win. And then
you have to send out an email funding
saying it's never been a worse time.
Like
>> is that true? And so I'm not saying it's
a left right thing. It's a this so
attached to the idea that you can't win.
And I've really noticed it in my space
too. And it's something I think about a
lot in my own work is to try and I
really want to update my own view of the
world and make sure that if good stuff's
happening, I don't get trapped in this
kind of rut. Yeah.
>> I want to win. Uh, I want us to become
mainstream and and and that will mean
like I have less to say,
>> but that's good.
>> You want to put yourself out of a job.
Like the best dating app would be one
that's designed to be deleted.
>> Do and don't shouldn't we all want to do
that?
>> Designed to be deleted.
>> It's sort of hard, right? But that
requires you not to wrap your identity
up so strongly.
>> There's a a line from Ben Francis the uh
founder and CEO of Gymshark and he said
um when your aspirations for the
business are bigger than your
aspirations for yourself then you can be
a proper leader. And his point there was
that he stepped he was the founder then
he became CEO then he stepped down as
CEO and got some guy from Reebok in who
could take them from whatever 100
million to whatever billion. Then Ben
came back in because he was needed at a
different time and he was just happy to
do what the mission called him to do.
>> Yeah.
>> And uh yeah if you don't have a
grievance anymore
>> and we saw the rug get pulled out from
BLM with this regard. Right. It was some
people sounded the alarm early. there's
a lot of money there and we can't really
work out where it's gone and they all
live in really nice houses and then it
took a lot of pressure and then
eventually that's kind of dissolved and
I think it's done damage to putting
forward the rights of black people and
and minorities in the modern world
because now everything's being tred with
the same brush. That's the problem is
that you actually just become too easy a
target, right? And you the last thing
you ever want to do is do your enemies
work for you, right? By just being bad,
>> right? playing in playing into the
caricature that they have of you.
>> Exactly. Which is the big I heard you
talk about that as a big fear. But I
want to turn the tables a bit and ask
you because you have been thinking about
talking about this issue of boys and men
>> for many years as well.
>> How do you think the debate's moved just
in the last sort of two to three years?
>> There's definitely been more of a
mainstream recognition of it to me.
I I have to certainly sort of
do a little bit of breath work when I
read one of these headlines because I'm
trying to work out is this lip service
being paid to blowing with the wind of a
cool topic at the moment.
>> Mhm.
>> Is it kind of like a disclaimer? Well,
we did talk, you must remember, we
released four a four-part series in
Politico on the crisis of boys and men.
By the way, all written by women. Um
>> well, not my piece in Politico, but yes.
They did the the Christine Ember had
theirs and hers came out theirs came out
at the same time. Not one was written by
a man. If it was why are men talking
about women's bodies, that would have
probably been an issue had it have been
reversed. Um, so I'm trying to work out,
okay, there's definitely more headlines
about it um that I see in the press. I'm
not tapped into what's happening in
Washington, what's happening on the
policy side. It would probably be good.
I know that you guys are are promoting
it, but it would be good if there was a
way to get that out more that, you know,
good news about men newsletter or
something. Um, to really allow that to
sort of make people who care about the
issues and boys and men not feel like
it's a permanent loss battle or like all
of their efforts, the best that they can
hope for is a a Washington Post headline
once every 3 months or something like
that. Um, we've got Ross Kemp just
released a three or five part series
about young men. Uh, Louis Thu's
documentary just came out on Netflix.
Um,
adolescence did so much [ __ ] damage.
I think when with the way that it tried
to frame things, with the language that
it used,
>> not so much adolescence itself, I think,
but the way it was interpreted by
interpreted.
>> Well, it was it that's a that's correct.
Yeah, it was purposefully left up to
interpretation.
>> There was a lot of vacuum in there and I
know that at least some of the guys that
helped to contribute to it. I some of
the showrunners I feel like had a bit of
an agenda and actually did have some
things they wanted to put across that I
didn't like I didn't really like. Um but
yeah, it was purposefully left open to
interpretation. Unfortunately, if it's
it's like a raw shock test. It was like
an ideological raw shock test for the
world. And what did almost everybody
think? They all thought the same thing.
All the mainstream thought the same
thing. What was it? Chem Badino was
being pulled up for having not watched
it as if it was a [ __ ] documentary.
>> I know. It was the first time in British
history that a political leader has been
criticized for not watching television.
>> Did you see this Jared mate? It was
[ __ ] insane. She got pulled up on
morning TV
>> by watching saying you need to watch
this. How? What?
>> Wow.
>> What do you mean? It wasn't even reality
TV, let alone a documentary. It was you
need to watch this fictional portrayal.
>> Wow.
>> It was wild.
>> Of the show adolescence of the show.
>> So that's a the UK is a good example.
I've actually since we spoke I think set
up a think tank there as well and we're
working quite closely over there and
it's like it is you do feel always one
step back one forward and a lot some of
the stuff that gets the most attention
is not necessarily the stuff that either
should or is most important. So
simultaneously the UK has released the
first ever men's health strategy and
it's a very good document where
streetings kind of put that forward. Um
they had a very serious debate in
parliament on international men's day
and actually all of the MPs told a dad
joke
>> at the beginning this organization
called dad shift did that and it's
absolutely it's absolutely [ __ ]
amazing. I really it's so cool. Wes
Streeting did it as well.
>> Um it's very fun. It was it was an
amazing debate about men's mental health
about what's happening. They're doing a
summit on the money. Were you happy with
what they did?
>> Very happy with it. Uh and so but then
the way that they were talking about
adolescence wasn't great for a while. Uh
there's been like so it's never going to
be a straight line. And the other thing
that happens is particularly things like
adolescence and I suspect with these new
documentaries too. I've really noticed
this is that the lag between the idea to
the screen is so great that by the time
it lands it's out of touch with where
the culture currently is.
>> Correct. So, it feels like, yeah, that's
maybe how people were thinking 3 years
ago, but it's not how it feels now. A
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That's drinklnt.com/modern
wisdom. Louie filmed the documentary
from the start of 25 until the middle
end of 25. But that means that they were
thinking about it through
>> 24 and you go this is a a fastmoving uh
Ross Kemp is probably almost uh spurred
on by the adolescence thing I think and
you know he sits down opposite William
Costello and he says uh so incelss they
they they kill a lot of people right and
William says we think that the total
number of incel killings worldwide is
the upper bound
Five. And Ross Kemp looks like he's been
punched in the head. And
you five five per day. He goes, "No,
five. Five total. Five." So
is is the territory going to be gained
equally? No. What would I what would I
say? um
the
gender wars or the sex wars I guess of
what's happening inside of the home,
what's happening with men's roles, those
things that that is going to be
downstream from all of the uh structural
changes that need to be made like how
are we doing with boys literacy rates
which I know are just falling through
the floor like they can't read, boys
can't read. uh what's happening with
getting them into education or higher
education or apprenticeships and then
what's happening with employment and
then what's happening with your place in
society and fatherhood and all the rest
of it like all of these the issues that
I think matter most that people feel the
most which is well where's my meaning
and what's my job like and what's my
income like all of those are after
effects of the stuff that comes before
it and that is education that's
employment that's mental health support
That's all of the systemic kind of bor
like your work. Yes.
>> Uh and it it almost feel
>> Did you just call my work systemic and
boring?
>> Cuz if you did, I'm so happy [ __ ]
I've always
boring.
>> This is like hallelujah for me.
>> I feel like I feel like a guy who's got
who's in a a relay race and I'm the last
dude.
>> I'm the last dude because this sort of
stuff, the way that I speak and the
place that I can have the biggest impact
is actually much closer to the end. I
think in some ways that if we're going
to talk about uh what is what is the
role there are there are maybe not that
I can definitely influence the way that
people think and and and the uh
approaches that that guys and girls take
to the sort of structure of their lives
but ultimately the big movers that come
before that really lay the groundwork
are going to be more on the side of
what's happening in school what's
happening in employment what's happening
well I think actually it's interesting
you put it that way because in some ways
I think you're kind of at the back and
the front of the relay because
>> I'm both of the guys in the human
centered.
>> You sort of doing the work of both like
they feel like and I'm somewhere in the
middle. I'm like the rest of
>> you can be you can be the middle of the
>> Can I be the middle? I don't know this
analogy is working for me. But anyway,
um so because you have to have space for
a good faith conversation about what's
actually going on with boys and men
>> and a good faith investigation of that.
Uh, and you also need young men
especially to hear that conversation and
to feel like we're talking about this
stuff that in a way that takes them
seriously and that says they have
problems, not that they are the problem.
>> And and so I do think that these sorts
of spaces are important for creating the
conditions under which policy makers and
politicians and others can then do their
work which will then hopefully address
the material problems. I don't think
we're not going to change some of these
material issues like overnight.
>> Yeah. But I think that we could at least
do no harm. And for too long, the
deficit framing around this issue of
young men, what's deficit framing? We
start with like what's wrong with them.
So classic example of course would be
toxic masculinity, which I think we've
talked about before, and just like let's
start with that. Let's start with not
making you toxic, right? Or like what's
wrong with boys in school? they don't
try or and even like uh my my friend
Scott Galloway
falls into this a little bit when he
says, "Oh, like the the daughters are a
pen or a lawyer and then the guys in the
basement vaping and playing video games
or whatever." Like there's just this way
of talking about young men that really
suggests that they're the problem rather
than looking at the kind of systems
around them. And I will just say given
the young men I know who listen to you
and to others that that this hunger just
for honest disagreement, good faith
engagement around the problem is huge.
>> And so I do think we have to set the
table in a way that allows us to do the
work. Right. The cultural stuff's both
before and after.
>> I I I get what you mean. I think that
the challenge that you have when
speaking to men about uh the balance
between ambition and compassion. Uh I
know you can be more but you are enough
already. um we need to do things to help
you, but you also don't want to be a
victim. Especially for men, it comes
into contact inside of their minds
because nobody wants to feel like
they're not doing it on their own,
especially if you're a guy. Where's the
heroism in that? Uh and you know, I
think what Scott's sort of trying to
point the finger at there is he's saying
you need to pull yourself up by your
bootstraps, right?
>> And for many men that is true. I had
this idea uh earlier this year called
advice hyperresponders. So advice
doesn't distribute evenly like medicine.
It distributes like alcohol. The people
that are already drunk on it take too
much when the people who need to loosen
up don't have a
>> I think you've talked about this in the
context of me too, haven't you?
>> Yes. Yeah. Exactly. The guys that are
told that they shouldn't be pushy with
women,
>> the nervous ones take it to heart and
the dudes that were blowing through
boundaries just disregard it entirely.
Yeah, a person who is already loading
too much responsibility and working too
hard hears just work harder and goes I
knew I knew that I wasn't working hard
enough. I must push push more. Whereas
the guy that is laying on the couch and
there is a huge what is it 14 million
men who are
>> not in education, employment or
training.
>> Yeah, exactly. Nicholas um
>> Istat uh isat.
>> Ibistat Yeah, he corrected me. Um yeah,
I've been getting it wrong for years.
>> It's fine. Uh, look, you're right that
we've gone through this period of
informing men of how to be men.
>> Yeah.
>> By telling them everything that they
shouldn't do.
>> That's right. A long list of don'ts.
>> Yeah. It doesn't inform what you should
actually move toward. And the vacancy is
hugely detrimental. And if you're going
to complain about what men are doing,
>> but only tell them what they shouldn't
be doing without a replacement. You
can't complain when people step in and
fill that gap. Whether you don't like
Rogan or me or Peterson or Tate or Nick
Fuentes or [ __ ] Myron or or whoever
whoever it is that you do or don't like,
whoever is or is not, and if you don't
like Aragon from [ __ ] Lord of the
Rings, like if there's a vacuum, that
will get sucked in because there's a
market to speak to people. And if
nothing else, even if people aren't
speaking to it, if you don't service the
market, someone will reverse engineer
another message to become the thing that
they're missing. Like if you can't eat
food, you'll eat tree bark instead
because it's the closest thing that's
approximating food. Yeah. So there's a
certain naivity in thinking that we
don't have to answer the question, what
does it mean to be a man? Correct.
Right. Because every culture has had to
answer that question. And and and so the
it's not the question is not is there
going to be a question? It's who's
giving the answer? And if you don't like
the answers as you say that some of the
men are getting then what's the
alternative?
>> And so you can't just vacate the ground
and then complain. You can't give up the
ground and then complain that somebody
else takes it. And that's exactly what's
happened. Like mainstream culture just
basically gave the gave up the ground
and said like we're only going to talk
about masculinity if we put the prefix
toxic in front of it. In fact, you can't
even really use the word masculinity now
with young men. Um because it codes so
it codes left because it's come with the
modifier toxic, right?
Even if you use it as just on its own
>> even only. Yeah. So what young men have
kind of heard, they've only heard it in
that context now. And so you got to even
the words really count here in terms of
which what how does it signal and it's
really interesting to me that the word
masculinity itself now to a lot of young
men they've only heard that coming out
the mouths of people who are about to
say something bad about it, right? And
sometimes they'll say
>> so good or they'll say healthy
masculinity, right? Implying of course
against
>> that normal masculinity without the
modifier is unhealthy.
>> Just don't hear it the other way around,
right? And so they they know what's
coming when they hear you talk that way.
And I do think you're right that there's
been this huge cultural vacuum. Um and
I'll come back to something you said a
minute ago which is like and I struggle
with this a bit in my own work and in
some of the work that policy makers are
doing which is you don't want to say to
young men especially,
we're here to help you. Poor you. Right?
Look at you struggling. Poor you. What
we want to say is we need you.
That's the message I think most young
men need to hear is we need you. Society
still needs you. The tribe still needs
you. Your family still needs you. Your
kids for the love of God definitely
still need you. Uh we need you and we
also need you in these service
offerings. I I wrote a thing with Robert
Putnham in the Times last year talking
about the boy crisis of the early 20th
century and how all these civic
organizations, Boy Scouts, Boys and
Girls Clubs, Big Brothers, Big Sisters
were created almost overnight to respond
to what was happening with boys in the
cities after urbanization. They were
staffed by men. There were four boys and
there was a so huge civic response, but
it took men to do it. Whereas all of the
youth serving organizations now have way
more women volunteers than male
volunteers. M
>> and of course I'm not blaming the women
>> who are stepping up to do that work. God
bless them. But I am saying if you want
to serve boys and young men, you better
have some men, too. But our men hearing
that message, we need you. Not despite
being men, not
>> as a volunteer, but as a man, we need we
need men,
>> right? It's just not
>> because you're good. Because you have
something to add as a man. Not Yes. That
your masculinity, and I I've made the
I've used the word again, your manhood,
right? Well, basically, we want you
because you're a man, not despite being
a man. We see you being a man as a
feature, not a bug.
>> Yeah.
>> And I just don't think enough men have
that. Well, even that, right, the the
the idea of uh duty um of uh almost like
service um turns very quickly into
obligation isn't nasty enough of a word
that well I mean you know you you you
should you should go and do this as
opposed to this is a noble pursuit for
you to try and pass on good things and
good advice to the next generation of
young men,
>> right? Uh so do we need new language to
talk about gender issues then?
Femininity is that is that also a
difficult one to talk about?
>> No, I mean femininity is hard. I mean
feminism has become quite
>> femininity actually I would very rarely
hear being spoken about other than
anybody from the right. Femininity would
be pushed as part of a sort of sundress
and baking trad.
Uh I don't hear many people from the
left talking about it because it's not
something to be pedestalized. I would
hear masculinity talked about primarily
from the left as a cudgel to beat men
with usually with some sort of modifier
of toxic or whatever. Um so yeah and and
feminism as well manosphere
unfortunately well it was it was very
quickly kind of it feminism was
something that previously in the past I
think a lot of people think was was was
it was a gender equality claim.
>> Yeah. very quickly moved into something
else. Uh actually it gets increasingly
quickly moved into something else when I
learn about some of the factions that
sort of birthed out of feminism at the
very beginning. I was learning about
this yesterday. Um
>> but the manosphere was used to describe
a group of people, not necessarily a
movement or an ideology. The group of
people happen to all agree about it. So
maybe the manosphere was never going to
be it. I' I've given you my bit about
the three waves of the manosphere,
right?
First pick, second
wave, which originally was the
gentleman,
>> but I think maxing is going to be the
third wave.
>> What?
>> Lux maxing.
>> You think that's the third wave?
>> I So here's my here's my theory about
about luxing.
>> Most of the Lux maxing, guys, if if it
sticks, cuz it's only been around for 6
months.
>> If it if it sticks and it becomes even
more ascendant, and it might do cuz it's
really memeable. If it stays, what it
will create is basically a sexier
version of the black pill and migtau. So
it'll be men going their own way. If you
look at what the men are
coding for, presenting for, it's not for
women. They don't care about women all
that much at all. They care in as much
as women can get them a claim in the
eyes of other men, but it is basically
formidability is what they're signaling.
height, uh, like unbelievably
masculineized faces, which if you look
at the evidence, most women prefer an
either average in terms of
masculineization, or a slightly
feminized face with a masculineized
body. That's what they find most
attractive. But men think about gigaad.
They think about these protruding
cheekbones, insane draw. Yeah. The
mandible. They have that.
>> People mewing.
>> Mewing.
>> I learned about that the other day.
>> Pushing their tongue into the roof of
the mouth. Yeah.
>> Why do they do that? It's to try and
create a tighter jawline. You're doing
it right. Yeah, you look like a
gigachad.
>> You look like I look I look like a
squad.
>> Yeah, you do look like um but look, a
lot of the the most extreme version of
male luxing basically is a male to-male
transsexual operation.
>> It is taking a man and trying
to turn up the caricature. Oh, my my
thinking about this, if it stakes, uh,
what it will be is basically disregard
women and just focus on mogging, which
is male-to-male intros competition. It's
trying to be as formidable as possible.
Now, you saw this with Ziz 15 years ago
in 2010, but he was still obviously very
female attraction coded. It was a much
more kind of holistic broy version of
this. It was way less autistic. and he
had this great line which was um
disregard women acquire dance moves but
it was done in a lol pow kind of way
whereas this is this to me feels like
genuine disregard of we're not bothered
about mating we're not bothered about
getting women we're not bothered about
really anything other than maleto-male
intraexual competition and if that
sticks it's going to become very insular
stick will it mean the idea that these
these guys are hammering their faces or
breaking their bones or doing the thing
you just what I just tried to do kind of
mewing.
>> Yeah, it worked.
>> Uh and then not interested in women.
>> No, I I don't I think it go Do you see
Sto Steven Cobear just did a thing on
Looks Maxing? No.
>> Uh it's from a very feminist
perspective. It's funny as you can
imagine, but a whole thing about it. Um
it's worth it's just worth watching
because he goes into it. But I sort I
just again I think I don't want to be
empirical about this but like how many
men are we talking about? like is it how
long will this last? Will it will it
last? Will it go? Is this the start of a
you know decadesl long shift in the
gender tectonics or is it just
>> decades long but it it could stick about
for a while and it would definitely put
things on the back foot because it's
going to be less um
>> I just I see that I see it breaking
through. I hear people talking about it.
I'm not saying it's not happening and
and actually we're doing some work on
growing issues around body dysmorphia
and and so on among which is on track to
overtake female body dysmorphia within
the next decade. Yeah, I've seen that
stat. I I don't know if that's true or
not.
>> Scott Griffith Australia.
>> I just always worry about those lines
being projected forward, but anyway,
it's a real thing. Yeah. Um and and what
I think it speaks to is um I do think
lying behind all of these trends, right?
Whatever the thing is now, what it will
be before is what we're talking about a
moment ago was just this guy John DeVa
Vulp. I don't if you know him, Pollster.
He wrote this really nice piece a few
months ago where he talked about
masculinity vertigo in which he says
basically what's happening to young men
is that they're I I call it pinball but
same idea which is on Monday what you're
being told is the problem is that you're
not masculine enough right you need to
work out more eat more protein looks max
be more dominant etc right you need to
you need to man up and be more masculine
the next day what you're being told is
you're too masculine you need to cry cry
more and eat more salad and go to
therapy more and like find your feminine
side and then on Wednesday you're back
to so it's just become this very
contested and kind of difficult thing
right now uh in a way that just wasn't
before and into that you'll get looks
maxing or you'll get whatever body
dysmorphia will get what whatever moral
panic people want to put into it they
will but behind it what I actually see
is just a bunch of men especially young
men honestly just trying to figure this
out and to be good people and to be good
dads and good friends and have a good
life and to matter and definitely to
matter. They want to be they want to
belong.
>> Well, everybody I mean like not being
needed is fatal to the human condition.
>> There was that line, you know, I went
and searched it. I went and searched for
the original source of that line that
you gave me two episodes ago, maybe even
our first ever episode. Uh uh uh
uh the the modern family is a myth that
makes men tolerably useful. At
least one that at least makes men
tolerably useful. Jeffrey Dench. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> And it's kind it's actually this a good
opportunity to say that that
masculinity, manhood, whatever words you
want to look is always more socially
constructed like it's a cultural
construct. Same with fatherhood, right?
Margaret me talked about the invention
of fatherhood. Fatherhood is a social
invention. M and it is just true that
the roles, the structures, the
scaffolding, the norms, the messages
from society like we have to make men
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what I fought Louisie about. He he
pushed back against the idea that um uh
women are born with value. Men need to
create it. And well, what value are men
born with? Women have this unbelievable
capacity to make the next generation.
What do men have? What are they born
with?
>> Not in the same way. and look around the
animal kingdom and every man needs to
every male needs to construct himself
into something useful in order to matter
and be a part of the and is that a bad
thing? Is that part of the drive for men
to sort of push for mastery and conquer
and progress and improvement? I think
that's something that you have the
choice between men that are driven or
men that are useless. I'd much prefer
the driven men. Obviously that can
overshoot and turn into very squirrely
outcomes where they become tyrants or
scammers or whatever because that's the
same drive just turned up in the wrong
direction. They can be letharios and
they can play play the field in a way
that really hurts people. But yeah, I um
question driven by what isn't it? So
that word driven is really sitting with
me interestingly because it's like
you're driven what you actually feel is
like you belong, you're connected,
you're needed, you have a role, you have
a purpose.
And so sure if that's what we're talking
about and that has to be constructed a
lot more. I mean I think me's right and
you've had animation on talking about
you know the birth of how we how we
invented fatherhood
>> to survive as a species. Right.
>> Baby's heads got too big and women were
either they had the choice between being
snapped in half or having a husband that
would care.
>> Right. That's basically right. That's a
good summary of the work. And so it's
just true. And and I just think it's
incredibly naive for anybody to just
assume that we can just get to some
androgynous future. Um and that we don't
have to keep doing the hard work of
making sure that there is a cultural
message to men. All right, we need you.
We need you to do this. We need you to
not do that. Sure. But this is why our
tribe the tribe still needs you. There's
this um there are these cave paintings
from um they're in northern Italy, I
think, Romeia. And they're they're
famous because they're some of the
oldest or if not the oldest cave
paintings that have ever been found. And
the famous ones are the ones where
there's kind of very violent. There
stabbing and spearing and stuff like
that. But the most haunting one is
actually of a group uh clearly the tribe
and then another figure who's moving
away from them.
>> And the interpretation of that is this
an ostracism.
>> This personel by the tribe and actually
yeah because the tribe saying we don't
want you anymore and they're spitting
you out. we don't need you and in fact
you're kind of wor you're you're worse
so we got to now we'd probably
incarcerate but but ost to ostracize
someone there was social death and then
very often kind of physical death too
this has been this is not a new thought
around how do we kind of make sure that
the tribe needs you
>> that's true but when you unmass
ostracize an entire sex all of them feel
like they're being pushed out of the
tribe
>> if you do that yeah and so the message I
think too many young men have got is
that that we do we need you we got it
from here boys All right, thanks for the
last x thousand years. Don't need you
anymore. We got it from here. Or get on
board the futurist female train. Right,
that is a fatally flawed message. And I
actually don't think if you get away
from the culture war, it is not the
overwhelming majority of people think,
right? Most people think moms and dads
are a bit different and that's cool.
Most people think, you know, men and
women bring some complimentary skills,
right? That's the whole argument for
DEI, right? Is that you want a mix of
skills. You want a mix of backgrounds,
right? And so most people get that if
you get away from the culture war. So
most people believe all this stuff. I
think that most people believe to one
degree or another that different groups
are different. But when you start to
create a value stack based on who is
more or less worthy around that, it's no
longer we bring complimentary or
different skills to the table and
therefore everybody should have a seat.
It is you and your particular skill set
are surplus to requirements or actively
negative or tyrannical in some sort of a
way uh therefore you should change.
>> That seems to be the message.
>> That's right. And then then no surprise
that then people will lean into that
identity. Right. If you if you really
want someone to lean hard into an
identity, all you have to do is threaten
it
>> and that and that will be the result.
And I think we've seen some of that. But
of course, I don't think that the answer
is to go back to a more kind of
reactionary kind of conservative view
about the role of men and women or to
introduce some kind of gender re bring
back gender inequality in order to
resupply men with their purpose. That's
not the answer either. And it's also not
what most people want. I mean, we're
about to publish some work showing that
we've just seen the biggest increase in
the amount of hands-on fathering that
we've seen for probably half a century.
So, American dads are just doing more.
Wasn't it that uh uh millennial fathers
spend as much time with their kids as uh
uh silent generation or baby boomer
mothers?
>> That's exactly right. Yeah. The the
amount of the amount of direct child
there's gets complicated because it's
secondary and and primary childare, but
the amount of primary care child care
being done by dads now is uh as high as
was being done by moms in 1985. Uh and
and of course moms are doing even more
>> deadbeat dad thing.
>> Yeah. I mean, I this is a bit of a a
rant coming now because I think the
whole the whole deficit framing around
fatherhood and dads, right? Either
deadbe or doofus is is really upsetting
me. And I think partly as a dad and and
one of the things that upsets me and
here I'm going to really take aim at
some folks on the left is this idea I
just exposed to again recently that if
you look at full-time
mothers and full-time fathers so working
full-time in in the labor market that
moms are doing 25 to 30% more of the
housework and childare right that's the
fact that's out there's a book by Eve
Rodsky fair called fair play this the
second shift and then the idea of the
second shift yeah women working the
double shift etc. And I just saw it
again a woman's group just kind of put
out same thing like and the stat this is
this is a good example of a category of
statistics that
feel true. Go with your intuition but on
close examination collapse but they're
not actually false. So it is true that
men and women living together with kids
both working quotes full-time
>> she's doing more of the house work and
the child care than he is. But what
they've done is defined full-time as 35
hours or more. He is doing more hours.
So full-time working dads are doing more
hours than full-time working moms. And
if you add
>> 45 versus 35,
>> if you add it all up, it's about six 60
hours a week each.
It is to quote Suzanne Bianke from a
paper like 20 years ago. She describes
the contributions of mothers and fathers
in those households as quote amazingly
similar. And that remains true to this
day. So dads are doing about 8 hours
more paid work a week and moms are doing
about 8 hours more unpaid work a week
and they're doing exactly the same
amount of work. They are putting in the
same work week. But this idea somehow
that like dads aren't doing their
they're not pulling their share. They're
not doing it's just untrue.
And every time I see that, it infuriates
me as a dad and on behalf of dads and
also because it's just a colossally
terrible social science. And it's going
to be blown up within 3 minutes by
anybody that wants to destroy it. And so
it's actually not even in the interest
of the women's groups to put out this
bad social science because it'll get
destroyed.
>> I understand what you mean, but the
problem is the more simple headline
always wins. In our current age, I'm
This is an iron law. the simplest
headline always wins.
>> I don't think that's true anymore
because because we'll come here and talk
about it and your audience isn't gonna
listen to it and they will and they they
might not have read that headline and so
I think I actually think you're being
modest.
>> Maybe not. Okay, but I mean I'm one guy
I'm one guy like tossing a [ __ ] drop
of
>> people want people want to know the
truth
>> and people are actually a little bit
sick of this thing going. Now, of
course, some people just want a stat
that goes with their priors and that
they can say over dinner and say, "Did
you know that women do more 30% more of
the housework even even when they both
work full-time?"
>> Yeah.
>> Right. Good. That but then I say and
then I come on say, "Yeah, but if you
look at the whole thing, they're
actually doing doing the same amount."
It's a kind of I actually think enough
people listening to you and to others
and I want to give you some credit here,
Chris. I think that one of the reasons
you're successful is because you are
curious and you do have good faith
discussions about these issues, right?
So, and you will change your mind about
things. And I actually think the hunger
especially among young people for that
is huge. And I think it's one of the
reasons why a lot of podcasters are
actually have a lot more credibility
than you think. And I actually really
like one of the things I like listening
to you uh this moment and we may have
had this moment ourselves when we first
spoke but I love this moment a few times
recently where you get this expert comes
on right on whatever it is like
something and they get and they don't
know who you are right they're an
academic and they've been told by their
PR company it's great he has a huge
platform and maybe they haven't done the
time right um and you've had it with my
friend Melissa Carney you've had it with
other people where they get about 10
minutes into the interview and you're
quoting these papers at them or you're
saying, "Yeah, I had them on or
whatever." And they go, "What?" And
actually, one of them I think actually
said out loud, she said, "God, you
really know know about this, right?
>> I should have prepared better." Yes.
>> You can see this kind of shot because
they look at you, they look at the vibe,
they look at the thing, and they kind of
go into, "Wait, what? Wait, what?" Um, I
think it's a credit to you and I think
it does make you somewhat different to
many of the other people in the
so-called manosphere because I do think
that even when I disagree with you or
disagree with some of the folks you've
had on, I think there is an attention
there to trying to get this right. The
only thing I'd say on the household
thing, and this is actually something I
wanted to bring up with you because it's
it's bugged me a couple of times in some
of the conversations you've had. So, I
think it's it's just us, right? So
that's a a spoonful of sugar to get the
the medicine down as well.
>> Yeah. The trouble is the [ __ ] sandwich
doesn't work anymore because everyone
knows what's coming, right? Although
some young people are saying, "No, no,
still give me the nice thing. I know
there's something bad coming, but I
still want the nice thing first."
>> I know it work. I will I will take the
only child in me will take a shameless
compliment.
>> I mean, it helps, right? But um and I
and I don't know how you think about
this, but I've also noticed like I've
just done my rant about like the the
anti-dad rhetoric of the left, right?
But I've also kind of noticed just in a
lot of these conversations, there's this
kind of implied return to a world where
the dad is the head of the household
where we're going to reassert this idea
of kind of gender inequality within the
household. And I I wish I could remember
who it was, but you had somebody
>> CEO COO.
Yes. Someone said that the mom she's had
a hugely important role. I'm not saying
the mom's like the COO of the household,
right? And somebody else will say like
men need to lead their families, right?
But the COO one really stuck with me,
right? Because okay, so she's COO. What?
Who's the dad again? He's CEO.
>> Okay. So what you've just done there is
you said we're going to go back in a way
to a world where there was this implied
gender inequality within the household.
>> Do you think that there's an inequality
between CEO and COO when it comes to the
household? I think there if you're going
to use that as an analogy, Rick, the CEO
is the boss of the company, right? And
the COO reports to the CEO.
>> Interesting. I think so. Look, I think
it was Arthur Brooks. Have you got any
more Have you got any more to say on
that on why you had an issue with it?
>> Um that framing
>> just because that framing, but I I'm
hearing it elsewhere generally more on
the sort of conservative side of this
argument. And it's here's what I don't
like. It's very rarely stated
explicitly. The explicit version of it
would be we need to get back to stable
families and families where men feel a
sense of purpose. And so we need to go
back to to families where
>> he is the head of the household. He is
the ultimate decision maker. He is the
leader of the family. Whatever language
you want to use which and and therefore
women are going to have to kind of
recognize that they are in the end
>> subordinate.
>> Yes.
>> What do you think about the feminization
of society?
>> Has there been a feminization of
society?
>> Helen Andrews thought so. Yes, I know.
But um well, it's interesting. I mean,
Helen Andrews, have you had her on, by
the way? I didn't come to
>> No, she didn't. She I can't get her on.
I don't know what she thinks of me or
the show, but we can't get her on.
>> Yeah, I mean, I did. It's one of those
things where I tried to ignore it
because it was a culture war thing,
right? Um everyone's talking about this
great feminization piece that she wrote.
In the end, I just did something on my
own Substack about it. Um where uh I
don't see the field she talks about law,
etc. they've only just approached 50/50,
right? Uh for one thing, and so I just
don't see the evidence empirically that
that's driving any of the changes in
those fields. What upset me most about
it was there are some fields that are
being quite strongly feminized. Mental
healthcare, psychology, social work, and
K12 education. There was no mention of
that. And so, actually, I'm very worried
about the real feminization problem,
which is that a lot of these occupations
are skewing more and more female over
time. That has implications for the
people in those professions, the kids
being served or the patients, but also
for men. Like last as we record this,
the last jobs report showed that three
times as many women had gone into the
labor force as men. Now, it was just one
month. We be careful about that. And the
reason was healthare jobs. Right.
>> Right. And so again, one of my
differences with some of the folks on
the right, political right, is that I'm
saying, look, this is the jobs are going
to be coming from areas like healthcare,
etc. And so we have got to get more men
into them with AI.
>> Yeah. And they're like, no, no, those
aren't jobs for men. you know, we need
to get men into men's jobs, you know,
into factories and mines and stuff like
that. I'm like, okay, good luck with
completely reordering the economy again
to make that happen. But in the
meantime, I see where the jobs are
actually coming from. Um, and so I think
that's a real problem. I think that the
the idea that, you know, the legal
profession has somehow become less good
because women are in it. I just don't
think
>> the legal profession is not going to be
around for that much longer and
certainly not in it.
>> Well, AI is AI is better than men and
women. So, correct. Gender becomes
irrelevant.
>> Ah, funny. What do you think about the
the feminism movement at the moment? I
spend all of my time
>> thinking about this through the lens of
what's happening to boys and men. So
even feminism for me is a reflection of
how is it going to impact the thing that
I care about most. Um not that I don't
care about women, but again like I've
got my I've got my priorities.
>> What's the current status of the
feminism movement? How do you think of
it when you come to think about these
factions? It's very hard for me to
answer that because I see it through the
lens that I approach it and I am at
quite a lot of meetings and conferences
stuff now you know which would be
described as feminist meetings. Uh and I
would say that slowly but surely the
women's movement or feminist movement is
coming to realize that demonizing or
dismissing men is not a good strategy.
>> It's happening pally and slowly but
surely but it is happening. Uh I'm
seeing a lot of leaders in those spaces
saying okay we have got to do better
about the boys and the men. Now you
might say well they're only doing it for
tactical reasons or political reasons
and they will very often say because
it's good for women right and I have
this interesting disagreement with them
and I'm very open about this. They say
we should care about boys and men
because we care about women and I'm
saying we should care about boys and
men. I just end the sentence earlier
than you. Right? Um in the same way that
we don't say we should care about women
because it's good for the economy or
good for men. Right. I I just I I I
think
>> I've had to do I've had to do that too.
I had this piece about um uh zero sum
empathy and I tried to legitimize the
reason it there was a lot of things and
it wasn't just this but I remember I I
sort of tossed this coin into the pool
that I knew would be effective which was
if you
if you don't care about boys and men
falling behind and also whine about
there being no good men to date that is
the equivalent of sort of mating logic
sepuku that you are creating the precise
birth of eligible partners that you say
that you and your daughters and your
friends and your sisters are looking
for. Like if you're not prepared to help
boys and men, you can't go where are all
the good men at? Because that's
precisely what is causing the lack of
eligible partners that you're talking
about. But I didn't want to have to
couch good men are good in as much as
they can be of service
>> partners. Yeah.
>> To you as a woman. It's just that we
should care about the falling behind of
any group. we should care about human
flourishing, right? If there's a group
in society that aren't doing well, then
we should care about them. I I just I
just think that's just for me that's
just a straightforward moral
proposition. Now, I'm also attend, you
know, obviously different groups of
different agendas, right? And so if you
care about this group or that issue
because it affects that other issue, I'm
fine with that. So when people kind of
say like Melinda French Gates has, you
know, supported me and Gary Barker
because it's part of a gender equality
thing, right? And she's very clear. She
says it's not good for women and girls
if boys and men are struggling. Right
now you might say, "Okay, so this is
where the kind of again the
reactionaries will be like, oh, of
course she has to couch it as that and
it's kind of I'm like, guys, for the
love of God, she is a global feminist.
Like, what do you want?" Right? And
she's supporting my work. She's
supporting boys and boys and men's work.
And like, no, no, no. They're like,
they're the purists. They're the ones
who are saying, "No, no, no. She has to
completely come over to our side." I'm
like, "Guys, take a win." Right? Of
course, as a feminist, she says she's
going to couch it that way. Right?
That's okay.
Um, do you find yourself doing the same
thing, couching it that way? No. No. I
know. I do it openly with with uh
Melinda and with others. I was at Recuic
Forum with the with um some of the
leading women. I'm just like, no, I'm
like my position and the position of the
American Institute for Boys and Men is
just very straightforward. Like we care
about boys and men doing better and
flourishing, right? We just care about
that period. Now, is that also good for
the economy? Is it good for families? Is
it good for women? Is it good for Yes.
Yes. Of course. Yes. Right. In the same
way that the women's services prevention
initiative, their tagline is when women
are healthy, communities thrive. I'm
like, true. Also true that when men are
healthy, communities thrive. But you
don't have to condition it. And I
honestly think there's a deeper point
there, which is that men in particular,
I kind of
>> kind of see the conditioning coming. You
see it like, oh well, if there's
something bad happens like men men do
bad thing, a oh, now we should care
about boys and men. Yeah. And they see
that conditionality. They see, "Oh, you
only care about me if X if I do
something bad or something bad happens."
And what they actually need to hear is,
"No, dude. We just care about you."
>> Yeah.
>> What do you make of the current state of
mating and dating?
>> Well, as a 56-y old man who's been
married for my almost my entire adult
life, my
>> You're expert subject.
>> Fortunately, I have three sons in their
20s at various stages. That helps. Uh
and a bunch of bunch of younger friends.
I mean, I do um I I it comes back a bit
to this politicization point, which is I
worry that the message that young women
are getting from the left is life's
really tough for women now and it's the
fault of all those men and the
patriarchy. And the the message that
young men are getting from the right is
life's pretty tough for young men right
now and it's the fault of all those woke
feminists and those women. So they're
being they're being encouraged
respectively to blame each other for
their real problems. That is a colossal
waste of political energy and not true.
It's also creating some difficulties I
think around dating, mating etc. because
we do see now that that political
polarization is affecting dating and
mating. I worry a lot and Dan Cox has
written for us on this that you see this
decline in dating in high school and
among kind of young young adulting. a
huge problem
>> because that's where you develop the
relational skills, the ability to endure
and deliver rejection gracefully, etc. I
worry a lot about that.
>> But I also worry that and maybe this is
something we could talk about that the
there's something about the marketplace
mate value evosych stuff I know you're
very interested in.
>> I've revised my Paul Eastwick has a book
out called Bonded by Evolution. Do you
know his stuff?
>> Yeah, I had him on the show.
>> Oh, you don't?
>> We had a long debate,
>> right? And I'm not going full Eastwick
on you here.
>> Please don't.
>> But I do find that something here's the
bit I do like about it like is that if
we're serious about thinking about kind
of ancestral mating patterns, we do have
to take seriously the fact that we
didn't live in cities of 10 million
people with a phone,
>> right?
>> That wasn't the marketplace we faced. We
were in smaller groups. So maybe you've
done this with him. Smaller groups and
we kind of would know these people and
they'd kind of come with us and and the
whole idea of kind of mate value doesn't
does shift a little bit over time. And
so my middle ground here is that it's
clearly insane. Not to suggest that
there isn't something, you know, quai
market or mate value thing going on. But
there's also something quite interesting
about this idea that kind of knowing
somebody or someone being known by the
people among you that becoming socially
sanctioned like someone you meet through
the workplace, friend of a friend, etc.
That that's very powerful as opposed to
someone you just algorithmically got
attached to on an app on the other side
of New York. I don't that's that's not
that's not how we evolved. I agree.
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at checkout. It's a very sexy argument
and the argument is
make value. He thinks mate value simply
doesn't exist. That there are no there
is no way that beyond the first look
anybody is more or less preferable than
somebody else. That revealed bonded
preferences over time end up flattening
the mating dynamic down. That tens could
get with threes and that threes could
get with 10.
>> That wasn't how I read him. I I I didn't
read him that way. Uh I think that's an
exaggeration, but maybe maybe I'm wrong
about that. I think he just it just gets
flatter. Not that it flattens
completely. He said there is no there is
no such thing after a couple of meetings
there is literally no such thing as mate
value.
>> There is no such thing as a disparity.
>> Why? So well he's more of the expert on
his work than I am. But I read it as
like mate value is a more complicated
idea.
>> I would agree with that.
>> I would agree with make value is a more
complicated idea. Uh what makes me sort
of bristle a little bit or what makes me
concerned is if you've got this world
that basically flattens it make it makes
egalitarian the mating market
>> is is one way that you could read it.
Right. That
>> no one's hot.
>> Yeah. No one's hot and no one's ugly.
>> Yeah. What's the uh Kurt Vonagut uh
short story? Um Harry Burggeron. Someone
could check this where the min the Do
you know this story? No. the min the
ministry for equality um uh levels
everybody out, right? And so uh it's a
satire. So it's like if you're a really
good dancer, you have to wear weights
around your feet. If you're if you're
beautiful, you have to get have plastic
surgery to make you less so. And if
you're ugly, your plastic surgery make
you more so. But one really like the the
main character story is like if you're
intelligent, if you're high IQ,
um that's right.
>> Yeah. Harrison Bj. Yeah. um that if
you're intelligent, they put a thing in
your ear that's just making a noise all
the time to distract you.
>> Distract you.
>> Yeah. And it's obviously like a kind of
flattening type thing. So look, I if the
idea is like there is just no difference
in how attractive someone is as a mate
>> uh to anybody else. I think that's not I
think that's batshit crazy. But I don't
over time even with what even with the
revealed uh preferences the revealed
>> um value that occurs as you get to know
somebody a little bit better that um
>> this is how beautiful elements of
someone's personality and the way they
hold themselves and their poise and
their patience and their regulation and
all the rest of it sort of appear over
time. Uh I think that denying the fact
that there are more and less preferable
mates and this isn't just idiosyncratic
that if you were to take a big broad
survey
>> that many people would rank as more
preferable even if you knew them for
four years
>> and more other people would rank less
preferable even if you know them for
four years.
>> Yeah. my understanding of it and again
like I'm talking about we're talking
about his work now but is that over time
you learn more about someone and so more
of their kind of different the different
elements of mate value come to the four
right so if I just if you just see me
you don't you can't you don't hear me
speak right you just see me maybe I'm
muing
>> Mhm.
>> Yeah. So, I look great. Yes. Right.
Right. Or but then or I don't I look I
don't look great. But then we talk for a
while and let's say I'm kind or funny or
let's say I'm an [ __ ] right?
>> That's going to change very
significantly, right? And then you see
me doing something hard for somebody
else,
>> right? You see me taking care of my mom,
you see me, you see me working hard,
right? All these things are adding up
field over time.
>> Yeah. That was the best that was the
best bit of what of what Paul said. I
really I really thought it was a nice um
twist on the very shallow sort of
typical understood and this is the
internet interpretation of mate value.
Right. And what's interesting about this
is it's almost exclusively for
short-term mating.
>> Absolutely.
>> Almost everything all of the mating
advice is for short-term mating as well.
>> It's not it's not like so actually I got
into this argument with Shahi Hamid for
a piece of the post where he said, "Are
you telling me to settle?" because I
said that we're talking about marriage
and I think the problem with the
marketplace uh idea is that it sort of
suggests that it's over once you've
mated.
>> But of course that's just the beginning
and the story you tell about your
relationship and the way that the
relationship evolves over time within
that story you're telling and the way
you treat each other as you become
different people over the decades.
That's the job.
>> And so the other problem with the
marketplace is it doesn't capture this.
It's about that maximizing and you match
and so then you cash out. Yeah. It's
like and you made a great match and
that's the solution. No, no, no.
>> And I said this to Shia and said to
others too, is that sure you obviously
if you're lucky, you'll fall head over
heels in love and it will just be
obvious and you'll find somebody, but it
is much less about the wife you choose
than it is about the husband you become.
>> I that's 50 years.
>> Yeah, I think you're right. the the the
EVO script as Paul said it
>> it's definitely a book of the moment
because evolutionary psychology is
second only to behavioral genetics as
the unspeakable topic but it's very
predictive and the guy I have a
particular
bias here because I'm in the city of
David Bur and William Costello and
they're about as well-meaning of a
scientist as you're going to get right
they're not they're not curating their
data. They're not trying to
push some ideological bent as far as I
can see. Um, so
>> and they change their minds about stuff
too. I've seen David do that.
>> He's moved back and forth between a
bunch of different theories that were
cornerstones of what it was that he was
pushing for a while. Um, but you know,
there was another element in that. So,
there was the uh mate value doesn't
exist. There was a denial of sex
differences really in preferences
between men and women that that they
simply not.
>> Yeah. Which I don't. And I'm like, okay,
I'm starting to construct a little bit
of a corkboard Sherlock Holmes style
thing here. Anyway, okay. So, many and
dating some problems.
>> Some people have argued that women
entering the workforce has caused
fertility rates to drop.
>> Yes.
>> What's your perspective there?
>> Didn't you have someone say that? I feel
like I've heard someone say that on your
>> Danny Solicowski definitely pushed back
against a lot of what women are doing at
the moment. I think she implied it. I
don't know whether she's
>> Yeah, I think she did. I think well and
I've definitely heard other people say
it which is this this idea and again
this is this is a great example of this
category of claim that feels intuitive
>> fits with your prior and is wrong.
Uh, and so you just got to those are the
ones I always worry. So if someone
brings a claim to me and I'm like,
"Yeah, that feels true." And as it
happens, I was thinking that myself,
that's when I always like triple check
it because it worries me. And there is
this claim that the fertility decline is
being caused by the entry of women into
the workforce, right? Again, that sounds
perfectly plausible, right? Like women
are too busy earning to be sprogging,
right? Can't do two things at once,
etc., But you look at the data and you
look at from the period from 1975 to
2005
the labor force participation rate of
women went up by 20 percentage points
>> absolutely massive like that was a huge
period of growth and over the same time
period the total fertility rate went
from 1.8 8 to 2.1 rough, right?
Something like that, right? This is just
this is me and Claude figuring this out.
So, hands above the table. Haven't done
a peer-reviewed academic article on
this, but and then the women's labor
force participation leveled out.
>> It's basically been pretty flat since.
And then it just had a a little bit of a
spike
>> since when?
>> Since about 2007, 2005, 2007 I just
drifting up. So, went and then like
that, right? uh unlike in other
countries actually where it continued to
go up. And that's when the fertility
rate really went down in the in the US.
And so it just it seems to me there's
got to be something else going on here.
And the fertility rate convers I know
you're very interested in this. You just
had Stephen on again, right? Um the
fertility rate conversation is a great
example of where
>> people take their priors and explain the
fertility rate based on what they
already thought, right? And so Jennifer
Schuber who I know it's a TED talk she
she's got a book um co-authored a book
toxic demography and her basic
conclusion is the thing that's causing
the decline of fertility rate is a lack
of gender equality right Korea Japan etc
right gender equity right right and and
that might be true uh there's some
evidence against it but there's some
evidence for it and then conservatives
will say uh you know the thing that's
causing the rate is feminism and the
entry of women into the workplace Right.
Okay. Again, you can see the arguments.
There's evidence for it and I've just
given some evidence against it and truth
no one knows.
>> Um, and so it's a really dangerous
subject because it is one of those
things that we don't know yet and we
should have a lot of humility by the way
about projecting population trends
forward. If we have not learned anything
is don't take a straight line and
project it forward. We don't know what's
going to happen, right?
>> Uhhuh.
>> Um, uh, so be careful. I I would say
I'm thinking about the population bomb
thing, right? Right.
>> Yeah, of course. But the population the
population bust seems more reliable to
be able to predict going forward.
>> But it seemed like that about the
population bomb which is like more
people are going to have more people
which means more people.
>> True. Yeah. Maybe you might be right.
>> So fewer people having fewer people
means fewer people. I mean I'm obviously
simplifying it horribly but but like
pretty accurate.
>> I just don't. So now there is a thing
like mechanically so I I'm I'm I will
just come out and say look I don't think
a rapidly declining population is a good
thing
>> right for some right I just don't I just
don't um but it's very interesting
because people when you actually try and
push people on why they why they think
it's a bad thing you get into all kinds
of discussions and I think people are
bringing lots of prize and lots of they
are I think Jennifer's right about this
there's a lot of morality being brought
into this people bringing a lot of
ethics so a lot of very pro-life people
I think if they're honest are saying
like we don't like there to be less life
because we like life and we want more of
it, right? That's a very like more life
is good,
>> less life is bad. That's a perfectly
legitimate religious and ethical
position. And it could be for
institutional reasons, it could be for
fiscal reasons, it could be because it's
or it could be for me it's more
symptomatic. The reason I worry about it
more is like I think if you got to a
point where you're significantly below
replacement rate and your society is
rapidly declining in size that should be
seen as a big flashing signal that all
is not well
>> somehow or other. Now what's not well we
don't know yet. Okay. Some things that
I've thought of to do with this. It
seems to me that
births are just downstream from coupling
for a large part. If you look at the
number of couples who are together that
are together for a while and get
married.
>> Well, yeah. A lot's going to depend on
how you define coupling in this example,
but yeah,
>> marriage, married couples.
>> Well, no, because one of the reasons the
fertility rates gone down is a decline
in teen pregnancy, and most of them were
not coupled. It was an accidental
pregnancy.
>> Okay, that's interesting. At least from
from I was speaking to Stephen. I
actually asked him after we went for
dinner last night. I asked him what his
thoughts were. he agrees with you that
his whole thing is this vitality curve
which was the most recent episode that I
did with him and that that's kind of
>> kind of a measure of the society's
forward-lookingness and vitality and
energy and
>> no so the vitality curve is basically um
when are people looking to start
families and if you have a graph that's
like this and it's the age across the
bottom and if it's goes from 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 it does that
>> I see
>> if you're looking to go to the dance
with someone and you're looking for
another dance partner. It's really easy
if everybody is dancing at the same
time.
>> Yeah.
>> But if you're 21 looking for a dance
partner and the curve is now flatter and
longer and shifted, right? Right. Half
the people think a dancers 5 10 years
from now.
>> Exactly. Exactly. This is his point.
>> And also if you shift it later, there
are just some raw physics of the system
that come in to sort of squish down what
you're able to do. if you are cycling
through partners, if there's a more
permissive culture of casual sex, of
moving on, so on and so forth, more
options, which means that you don't need
to quite invest so much. Um but his
point around the uh labor force entry
for women thing the dips that you see
1970 then 2007208
what's interesting there is because you
now need a two parent uh income in order
to drive the household people are much
more sensitive to economic indicators
and that means that if you have a turn
that's why he thinks in 2007208 uh
2007208
g global financial crisis saw sudden
accelerations in the delaying of first
births like a ratchet. And as we
discussed in our last podcast, once
first births move later, the whole
starting a family system shifts for
everyone as the vitality curve shows
delaying the median age of first birth
predictably raises childlessness and
lowers total birth rates. And that goes
in line with what you said. There's
fewer teen pregnancies, right? If you
shift this all rightward, this begins to
skew. His position is that
>> it's a ratchet that it never snaps back
because you need to lose a lot of the
things that people want. You you need to
uh uh sequester your independence. You
need to do things that makes you feel
like you're falling behind. One of the
points that my friend who I spoke to, I
told you the story about her friend
saying she wished that she was with her
when she had more going on. Uh she made
this point, I wish I'd had a kid during
co because it wouldn't have felt like I
was missing out on anything. rest of the
world's moving forward. And I think that
that's a oneperson microcosm of why why
is it a ratchet? Why does the average
age of first motherhood move only to the
right and never to the left? Well,
because it feels like you're missing
out. All of your friends are continuing
to do things in the real world and
you're not. He's got this this line
here. Um, vitality curve shows delaying
the median age of first birth
predictably raises childlessness and
lowers total birth rates. In that sense,
childlessness is largely a timing
problem. And so even if women no longer
worked, hypothetically of course, my
thesis from data modeling is that birth
rates would not fundamentally change
unless family formation also happened
sooner, which arguably it could. This is
cross-cultural. Economic uncertainty
pushes parenthood later across nations,
religions, and political systems. It all
comes back to timing. P.S. Historically,
the US managed this better than most
countries. Women could work and start
families at the same time, although that
balance has clearly started to break
down since the 2007208 crisis.
Well, that would be consistent with what
we were saying earlier about the need to
kind of just economically for boys and
for men to do better so that they can
actually we know that particularly in
low- income areas where men are doing
better, the marriage rate is higher.
>> Mhm.
>> And so I think there's two one one thing
I do worry about is that the bar that
you have to clear now before embarking
on kind of parenthood is just wildly
higher than it used to be.
>> Right. If you've got to have your
>> feels like it's wildly higher.
>> Yeah. And it's just and I they I really
really don't I really want to stand
against that idea. People set the bar so
high. How much parenting, how much you
got to bought your house, you got to be
career like the number of boxes you're
supposed to tick now is terrifying to
me. This was the discussion that we had
last night which
it doesn't matter where people are. It's
where people feel they are compared to
where their parents were and where they
feel like other people were. It is all
through the interpretation. And this is
this is like
I can't think of a way to emphasize how
much this is the [ __ ] driver of so
much that how much money do I think I
need to have? How much do I think I need
to be earning? How big do I think my
house needs to be? How secure do I think
my life needs to be before I can do this
thing? And where do I think my parents
were at my stage? And where do I think
their lifestyle is like? And what do I
think that everybody else is doing with
their life? And how easy do I think that
they have it? Because all of this is
being filtered through what we feel like
we should have and what we feel like our
level of exposure to risk is.
>> Mhm.
>> And it's not necessarily objective and
that
>> Yeah. Yeah. And it goes against people
and then people come along and say, "But
that's not true." And here's my chart
and here's my data and like and you try
and argue people out of a feeling which
you can't do. But that feeling of e What
did you say? Economic precariousness or
whatever. Um it's a a challenge. But it
maybe maybe I'm going to change my mind
about something here because I one of
the things we do know about men is that
becoming a father actually does
significantly change their behavior in
the world, right? and not least
economically to towards themselves etc.
Right. And we now know that changes
their brain. Darby Saxby has this book
coming out Dad Brain
>> and how kind your brain changes as well.
Um and we obviously know the stuff about
testosterone etc.
>> Right. Yeah. And so I just I feel like
we actually used to use marriage and
fatherhood as a way to kind of help men
grow up and Yeah. Exactly. I just really
hate that word and to say we have to
domesticate men because it sort of feels
>> keeping them feral is good.
>> Yeah. just also just like it's cuz the
alternative is feral, right? I mean,
it's like we have to and also it tends
to put the burden on women. Like we
basically say to women, would you mind
domesticating the men for us? And like
no, I'm not like
>> there's a manchild over here. Marry him
and make him a normal person.
>> I mean, like the women want the men
wants their house trained, right? They
don't think it's their job to house
train the men anymore,
>> right? And I I I find that a difficult
position to argue against. But the
problem is that if that takes, you know,
what's going to happen to the men in the
meantime? Are the are the men getting
themselves ready? Are they getting their
competence skills up ready? Yes. If so,
yes, maybe. But I worry that continued
delay misses out for this kind of this
moment, this kind of and I, you know, as
I'm a dad and there is just this
imperceptible
feeling of this kind of cog inside you
just going click and you become a
different kind of creature.
>> You you do uh I mean it's very hard. In
fact, some philosopher whose name I've
forgotten now, she had this great
analogy was like trying to explain to
someone who doesn't have kids what it's
like to have kids is like trying to
explain to someone that's not a vampire
what it's like to be a vampire. Right?
So, I'm the vampire. I'm like, "Yeah,
well, I, you know, I like to go out at
night. I like to suck blood, you know, I
hang upside down, etc." And, and you're
like a human. You're like, "Right." And
she uses that as an analogy between the
the chasm of the different kind of
creature you become. And it's like you
suddenly it's just existentially obvious
to you that there are lives there is a
life or lives in the world that are just
unambiguously
more important than your own
>> and for whom you would do anything you
would give your life for them.
>> It's very pro-social.
>> You would throw yes you would throw and
so it changes men in this massively kind
of positive way. This is why fatherhood
fatherhood is some one of my colleagues
put this to me the other Fatherhood is
the last male institution,
right? You don't have institutions
anymore that are kind of just like male.
I'm not saying there aren't still some
that are predominantly, but like
actually fatherhood like that is always
going to be a male institution. And it
is it is so in a way that isn't just
like a fact. It's actually a thing. It's
an institution that changes us. It it it
transforms us from the inside out. And
so if that's not happening to enough men
and you do see this rise in
>> childlessness, I mean for all the
discussion about incelss,
it's the kind of what would be the
equivalent of like not having a kid and
in involuntary
>> dads
but yeah
>> that's a much more troubling trend
because without that pro-social
structure and script and implication for
men that's a huge problem. So maybe
maybe it going later is bad. But I also
think that the way free societies work
as opposed to communist China where they
just said wait there's going to be too
many children you're only allowed one
even happened in Singapore. I just
learned recently that like your third
the government would pay for the birth
of the first two kids but you're on your
own after that. So you'd have to pay for
the medical costs of your third child.
Right? So because they read Eric's book
and they just freaked out. So you saw it
um in a free society what happens is we
learn from not our only from our own
mistakes but from other people's
mistakes. And so if we're starting to
see more and more women say or men start
saying, you know what, I kind of regret
not doing that earlier, I kind of wish
I'd done that, etc., then that learning
will get passed on.
>> Do you hear many women saying that? Is
that a popular topic that's being pushed
much at the moment?
>> There I will have to plead ignorance.
But I but I just think as a general
point, cultures learn if they're free.
And so if it's not working out for
people, people will see that it's not
working out for people and they'll do it
differently.
>> Yeah. I I think that's how progress
happens. I I would love that to be the
case. I would really love for there to
be uh at least par between the different
types of life paths that people can
take. Yeah. And at the moment it doesn't
feel that way. If you look in the media,
if you look in popular culture, if you
look in music, you know, there's a a
really fascinating song by Kelsey
Ballerini and it's called I Sit in
Parks.
>> Uh and what she talks about is she was
in a a long-term relationship. She was
30, her partner was 37 and he was ready
to have kids. She said she wanted to
freeze her eggs and that was her gift to
her and him on her 30th birthday because
she wanted to go and chase her music.
She wanted to go and play music and do
this to her. And he said, "I'm ready to
have kids now. If we're not ready to
have kids now, I'm going to move on."
She said, "I'm not." He moved on. And
then this song and the album, the EP got
released two or three years later. And
it's a story about her sitting in the
park and watching this family, this
mother and father. and she sits on the
bench and she rips her vape and she
says, "Rolling Stone is telling me that
I'm doing all the right things, but I
wonder if I've left it too late to be a
mother. I chose to do the damn tour
instead of going back." So, I take my
Lexa Pro and I I make my next song and
she's watching this family sort of have
a wonderful Saturday morning to to
themselves and wondering whether or not
she's made the wrong decision. That was
so [ __ ] shocking. and she's a country
artist anyway. But that was so so
[ __ ] shocking and the comments are
filled with women who agree. But that is
not I'm saying what's the equivalent
song from the parents
>> who are obviously like everyone's
glamorized there, right? The parents
song is like, "God, I wish I could have
gotten up late like her and had time to
make myself up and have a dress and have
be free." Maybe the maybe the mom is
looking at her thinking like, "Why did I
have kids with this guy when I could be
like her on a on a swing in a gray
dress?" The grass is always greener when
you've got optionality.
>> I know. And also like she probably got a
good night's sleep kind of last night. I
remember like when when I when when our
kids were really young, we kind of lived
on this flat in uh in Beliz Park in
London and I would, you know, get I did
the early shift like a lot of dads did.
I remember like I would my wife would be
sleeping and I'd be there with the kid
kids both had two under three at one
point and like and I would wait would
break I'd be tired waiting for a couple
and then this gay couple these gay guys
lived opposite us right the other side
of the street kind of gay couples right
I thought I watched I watched they would
get up they had lovely bathroes they'd
make a great great coffee machine you
were watching two gay guys through the
window listen it's like a long night
okay and I'm just watching them and they
had this kind of terrace and the point
it's
And I and and I just I say they'd get up
late, they'd have nice coffee, they'd
read the paper on their thing, they
didn't have kids crawling on me. So
yeah, the grass is always greener. But
here's I actually think I think you're
making my point. You're making my point
for me.
>> Mhm.
>> Which is there you have this incredibly
breakout country artist,
>> right, with this strong message
>> which is maybe I waited too long. Like
maybe this wasn't maybe this wasn't the
right thing for me to do. It's a it's a
story of regret, right? Song of regret
>> that is going to be listened to
>> as you said by like millions and
millions and millions of women. Right.
That's how cultures change is that we
get stuff a bit wrong and we try it and
we try this and that didn't work. We do
this and we all learn from each other's
and we and we adapt as a culture as a as
a eternal pessimist. Uh I I really hope
that that's the case. I you're right.
>> It's too early not to assume it won't
be. That's all I ask.
>> Cool. I mean it it the the reason that
it seems surprising to me is it's so
rebellious. Like that is a much more
rebellious song to put out than sleep
with him and not catch feels. You
>> I don't think that's true anymore. I
actually suspect that song is going to
do pretty well.
>> Oh, it is. I But but that is more
obviously famous anyway.
>> That's not the main culture at the
moment. I don't get the sense. And look,
I'm
>> What's the main culture? If she's not
the main culture, right? She's one
country artist with the two million
play.
>> I think I I I really worry that you like
see the main culture as like the New
York Times, right? um which is like a
peripheral counterculture at this point.
I shouldn't say that because I you know
occasionally right occasionally right
for them at some point. I guess that I
guess that road's closing up, but
they're just like they do not like or or
even like CNN or that's like actually
the mainstream culture it's her it's you
it's it's it's you know country music is
top now number one. You just like
there's this really interesting thing
going on now where I just think the
young people in particular they're
trying to figure out how to take the
best of what came before but not be
landed with the worst of it. And part of
that is to rethink this whole kind of
gender relationship thing. And they're
doing that and it's hard. complex and
they're not going back there. As I said,
like dads are doing more.
>> Um, but I think she's the one also,
right? Like he opens the door and like
is very courteous and stuff like that
just really lands. So I I I hope you
won't mind me saying my youngest son
went to the University of Tennessee and
um like he always opens the car door and
close the car door for his girlfriend or
who's kind of with and his friends who
are up from the northeast like oh god is
I have to start doing that now because
they went to liberal colleges where
that's like the non-feminist thing to
do.
>> Okay. But by and large, even the kind of
liberal women don't hate it. And so I
think that actually the mainstream
culture is kind of moving on this thing.
I hope so. I that that would be that
would be great.
>> And we have to make them feel like we've
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wisdom. That's drinkagg.com/modern
wisdom. What happened with this debate
between Scott Galloway and Derek
Thompson? Did you see it?
>> I didn't know that this happened.
>> Oh, you didn't see it? Okay. Well, it
kind of went partly because I know them
both and Scott's on our advisory board
as I mentioned. Um, so Derek Thompson
came back from paternity leave and it
was actually the first thing he did uh
was go on Scott Galloway's podcast and
he said it's not just like the first day
back, it's the first hour back and he'd
been I think on paternity leave for a
couple of months and that just triggered
this debate where Scott said, uh, you're
just back from paternity leave. How, you
know, how you doing? I'm finding my way
back. I won't be as coherent as usual.
Of course, Derek was incredibly
coherent. Um, h and Scott just said,
"Well, honestly, I don't understand this
whole paternity leave thing or even why
men should go to the births. I don't
think men should be at the births. It's
disgusting. Uh, the men should be
outside smoking cigarettes like the old
days and then they should go back to
work." Um, I just think it's ridiculous.
Basically, and Derek was like, "Uh,
well, actually men do need to take time
time off to come be with their kids
because otherwise like women are the
only ones doing it and you'll have
gender inequality in the workplace,
right?" What I found interesting about
that, I haven't like said anything about
this publicly yet, but I think they were
both wrong.
I think that Scott was wrong in
suggesting that men and dads are of no
use in the kind of early months. They
are of a different use to moms for sure,
but they are very often the main aloe
parent now, right? They're very often
the kind of one that's around and they
very often are the one that's like
getting stuff done. They're like, have
you heard of the owl monkeys who are
like the best dads in the in the natural
world apparently? No. Owl monkeys,
right? Where the dads are kind of around
all the time and basically moms are
doing the breastfeeding, nurturing, dads
are doing everything else, right? Dad is
getting [ __ ] done, right? He's getting
the food, he's getting organizing,
right? He's around them, but he's still
around them, right? That's kind of how
it is. I think that was certainly my
experience, right? So, you're not going
to you can't do what mom's doing at that
point. You also don't feel the same way
that mom does about the baby. You just
can't, right? Just just can't. You're
not wired to at that point. Um, so
you're still useful. So Scott was wrong
about that. Um, but I didn't like the
way Derek framed this as like men should
take time off so that women aren't the
only ones taking time off so that we can
get close the gender pay gap. He he
framed it as a gender equity issue,
right? Okay.
>> And I I my view is dads should actually
be able to take time off and should take
time off their kids not just when
they're young, etc. Not because they can
do what moms do, nor in support of
gender equality, but because dads are
awesome and kids are awesome and kids do
really well with their dads around them,
right? So, I don't I I don't I don't
want to be the deputy, the kind of
malfunctioning mom, the kind of, "Oh, if
only you could be a mom." Like, no, no,
dads are amazing. And so, I'm I'm really
pushing for this idea that kind of fell
between those two stools of like the old
idea of like dads, you should go back to
work, smoke a cigar, have a cigar. I
think he meant cigar actually, but have
a cigar, a whiskey, back to work. And
Derek Singer is like, "No, if you're a
good gender egalitarian, you've got to
take time off."
>> Yeah.
>> Right. Even if you hate it and you suck
at it, right? Because that's the way to
get gender equality. I'm like, "Guys,
guys, what about just saying
>> dads are cool."
>> And being a dad and the way dads are
with their kids a bit different to moms
on average in many ways. Amazing. So I
want like a again a pro- dad argument
rather than a gender equality argument
for fathering. Should dads be in the
birthing room? The evidence and actually
interesting Darby Saxby who I mentioned
earlier dad brain she did write a
response to to this kind of thing which
people can find and she kind rightly
pointed out that actually the evidence
on how the unprecedented trial of dads
being in the birthing room uh is going
is really mixed. We don't know and
actually kind of sometimes in surveys
afterwards like moms have mixed feelings
about it if the birth doesn't go well. I
think you talk to animation about this
it can be quite traumatizing for the
dad. So I think look I might get in
trouble for saying this now but I think
that we have to be honest the evidence
is a little bit mixed and I think it
shouldn't you shouldn't be like you
shouldn't be shamed for doing it or
shamed for not doing it. And moms, by
the way, should also feel like if they
feel that they'll be better off with
their mom or their friend or kind of
somebody else, they should feel okay
saying that to their partner too for the
actual birth, right? Either are obliged
to
>> I Yeah, I just sort of because as Darby
points out, we've never done this
before, right? This is
>> how men been in the birthing room about
30 40 years. I shared this with my with
my wife. I said, things blew up and she
said, "Oh, Scott says that men shouldn't
even be in the birthing room." She said,
"Yeah, I probably wish you hadn't been."
What? I said, "What?" It's like 25 years
later. I said, "What?" She like, "Yeah,
>> I thought it was really What about all
of my words of encouragement?
>> You were more harm than good. You did
more harm than good. I mean I mean I
don't I haven't I'm now sort of
litigating something personal on air
like we just go back to it. But there
are pros and cons, but but I honestly
think like it's not it wasn't I mean the
real truth is it was a very hot day and
I'd ordered a fan because I knew it was
going to be hot, but I didn't realize
the fan wasn't made. So I opened the box
and she went into lab. She went into
labor.
She's in labor. She's in labor. And I'm
shouting from the other. I go to the
other room, right? She's having
contractions. So we do that at home,
right? And um and I said, "Uh, do you
know where the Phillips screw?
She says, she said, I don't need a
Phillips screwdriver to have a baby."
I'm like, "No, but I need a Phillips
screwdriver to make the fan."
I'm not great at DIY anyway to be
honest. But so like I said, do you know
where it is? She's like, "I've already
addressed something. I'm in the other
room. I'm trying like this huge pressure
now, right? This is like
I'm trying to make I'm trying to make it
and she's like, "Forget the [ __ ]
fan." Just like I'm having the I'm
having the baby. I'm having the baby.
Fan or no fan, the baby's coming. I'm
nearly done. I'm nearly done. I'm I'm on
like I'm on like step seven with the
Philips screw. So I you know, I didn't I
wasn't amazing from that point of view.
So I think that the fan thing it ja
about my view to be honest to be honest
and then uh anyway the other one I I'm
all in now the other one so was in the
birthing pool right cuz I was very into
that
>> and the birthing pool and we'd been to
one of these very
>> I said yeah I think I can share this
we've been to this very
>> very like progressive lawy like midwifey
thing right about birthing a home and if
you have it in the pool that's kind of
great which is good by the I mean I'm I
think the whole like overmedicalization
of child birthing like I'm I'm I'm
really persuaded by that argument now
that actually doing it more naturally is
really good. So I've only misunderstood
here it
>> put in the pool. But she said but guys
just can I just say something to you?
She said like it's quite it can get
quite murky in there. Can't see it right
which is true. Um and she said and so
the only thing I'll say is if you get in
the pool with your partner to support
them right put something on. Put some
swimming trunks on. She said, "Because
there have been occasions when I've seen
something spherical and hairy in the
water, and I've assumed that it's the
baby's head crowning, and I've gone in
to help it, and it wasn't the baby's
head crowning. It was the dad's
testicle." And so I've grabbed him by
the bollocks,
etc., right? And literally every guy in
the room is like, "Fucking."
So this is the other child, right? So So
this time she's having a baby. She's
like, "You know, I want you to get in
and rub my back and do all I'm cool. I'm
here for you, honey. And then I go into
the other room and then I'm shouting
out, "Where are my swimming trick? What
are you talking about? I need my
swimmers." She's like, "I don't know
where they are. I can't find them. I'm
slamming trots open." And the midwife is
like, "For God's sake, she's having the
baby. Get in the pool. I don't care. I
don't care." I said, "It's not about
modesty." I said, "The lady at the
thing, the lady at the Lamar's class."
She said, "You got to you've got to wear
swimming trunks." I said, "I'm not
getting in there without
so anyway." So my main advice and then I
guess you know the other one the other
trial was like you get to cut the cord
and I was terrible at it. I couldn't cut
it. I was hacking through it. I thought
you'd have these massive shears you know
be like no like like opening up a new
[ __ ]
city hall. It's a tiny little pair of
scissors and you're trying to hack
through it. It's really gristly. Took me
ages near the nursing I'll do. To this
day, my eldest son has got this really
weird belly button and he blames me for
it because it so so all the fathers out
there key key items if you are going to
be with a Phillips fan driver or make
pre-make the fan or have a Phillips
screwdriver, a really good pair of
scissors cuz the ones they give you are
crap and swimming trunks
>> and then you'll be fine.
>> [ __ ] me.
>> Oh god. Well, is the idea of um not
being in the B. I didn't know that it
has only been four decades.
>> Yeah, I guess 70s. I don't know. That's
really when it came in was like 70s and
80s.
>> Wow.
>> And it went from being like it's a
really interesting cultural change. I
mean, if you look at uh I didn't have
the numbers to hand, but but it really
flipped very fast
>> and as I say like, you know, it's too
soon probably to get this kind of strong
evidence around it. Um, and it was a
great example of how like the internet I
think Scott ended up kind of collapsing
kind of you know on him and kind of kind
of apologizing but but as I said Darby
Sax was saying actually we don't really
know yet about the dads in the birthing
room thing because we've that is a
completely unprecedented cultural and
she came out in favor of it and said but
you know dads are great putting them on
with my kids like you put the you put
the kid on your on your chest and one of
them pooped all over me and but actually
that skin-to-skin thing or building
skinship to use a term that uses. That's
all true. Um, and that's great. Uh, but
that got lost, of course, in, you know,
the positions that people had to take
on.
>> Paternity leave seems a little bit more
of a like easy discussion to pass
>> much easier now. And it's interesting
like it's not most states are doing
something on it now. So the basically
the Democrat states are passing some
sort of paid leave policy for dads and
the Republican ones are having tax
credits to encourage employers to offer
paid leave. And so the idea that dads,
you know, dads are parents too, uh, and
bring something different, uh, that's
not really a controversial idea anymore.
And we have seen a massive increase, I
mean, I mentioned earlier in parenting
by dads. Um, and a massive increase in
the uptake. There are some states now
where sort of the new parental leave
policy is as likely to be taken by dads
as by moms. And so there's been this I
find this very interesting like a way
you get these culture wars right where
either we're being overrun by woke
feminists who like you know demonizing
men and you know running everything into
the ground or you get these kind of you
know reactionary podcast you know people
reactionaries who are kind of taking us
back to the handmaid's tail and then you
just go to the data and you say huh
interesting dads are doing more
parenting than before. It's not like a
note significant kind of increase,
right? Labor force participation for
women's actually hit its all-time high
after the pandemic. Yeah, I mean it was
it was up a little bit. Um violent crime
is way down. It's halved in the last you
know decades. The number of boys
fighting at school also halfed in the
last kind of few dec etc etc. And so
um
away from with the clicks to use your
language from earlier and away from the
culture war, what I see is by and large
ordinary people, moms and dads, young
people, boys and girls trying to figure
this out and figuring it out one way or
the other. And it's bumpy and it's
difficult and it's messy. But I think
that the progress line is there. And I'm
I'm I'm a little bit sick of the
pessimism. I'm a little bit sick of the
deficit frame. Right? My hero John
Stewart Mill once said, "Everybody who
knows anything of the world is supposed
to think ill of it."
>> Right? So that intellectual snobbery in
favor of pessimism has always been
there. Right? And he was like, and so uh
I'm trying to recalibrate some of my own
talking about this because there is a
danger that you're like, we could talk
about stuff we've talked about before
about wages and male suicide and you
know, real problems, but I just kind of
worry that it becomes a bit of a almost
cultural race to the bottom. It's like,
who can describe exactly how we're going
to hell in a hand cart
>> in the most grave terms the fastest?
>> And then you'll get on podcast, then
you'll get clicks, then you'll get book
deals. And and the market for that is
it's not a new it's not a new problem.
Actually, think about the number of
books that start with the end of, right?
Actually, at one point I thought it
might be the end of endings or something
because I'm just sick of those as well.
Like everything's the end of everything,
right? Rather than you know what, we're
figuring this out. It's a bit difficult.
We should help each other out. we should
have some supportive policies. We
shouldn't demonize each other. We should
definitely not pathize men or women or
anybody else.
>> Um and we should try and figure this
out. Um but but onwards and upwards
because otherwise pessimism is a
self-fulfilling prophecy. And I think
it's a real problem particularly for
America. I mean we're in America now,
right? And things I love about America.
Things I hated about our old country was
that everyone lived in the past. And
this definition of an old person is you
know you're old when you spend more of
your time thinking about your past than
your future. I think the same is true of
societies. Once societies start thinking
more about their history and their you
know and all of that which you want you
want that sense of history and
patriotism but you want to be spending
more time thinking about the future. I
just heard this guy on a podcast and I I
can't remember who somewhere he's a guy
left Harvard actually um and he sort of
said Americans the thing about America
is that it's obsessed with progress and
innovation. I'm like
>> yes yes that's why I'm here.
>> That's why I'm a proud American.
>> That's why I'm here. Uh, what's
happening with men's life satisfaction
at the moment?
>> Uh, I don't know the latest data on that
actually. Um, I don't I don't
>> Well, you mentioned here's a bunch of
reasons why stuff's maybe not quite as
[ __ ] as people think it is.
>> Yeah.
>> But I think if you were to lick a finger
and put it in the air and take a
cultural temperature of how people are
talking about the situation,
>> I think more people would What's the
number one reason for why people uh the
Pew research data around why they don't
have kids just don't feel ready yet?
Uh yes. And then the second is couldn't
find the right person.
>> Couldn't find the right person. The
second one, but just don't feel ready
yet. It's like unfinished article, a
little bit unsure of myself. Yeah. I
mean there's there's there's a mixture
of objective and subjective measures
here. There was this really interesting
paper looking at the kind of five
milestones to adulthood like finishing
education, getting a job, leaving home,
getting married, having kids. And it was
very what it found was that 20 years
ago, men were more likely to hit those
milestones and now men are less likely
than women to hit those milestones. So
the milestones to adulthood are being
hit more by women now than by men. The
co the coefficient has has flipped. As
far as the well-being stuff goes, my
last time I looked at this, it was
relatively stable if on the kind of good
subjective well-being measures. Um we do
know that men are much more affected by
relationship breakup and unemployment.
And so e negative economic and social
shocks damage male well-being more than
female wellbeing. So you might expect um
some of the recent shocks to have
affected men more. The trouble with this
honestly is that there's just so many
bad surveys out there that will ask
these kind of point in time questions uh
from both sides. I'm not throwing
anybody under the bus here, but just
like and it gets clicked and it some of
the surveys like there's so many surveys
on young men now. I mean like if I get
another email saying we want to do a
survey on what young men are really
thinking. No, please don't because
you'll just ask some stupid questions
and then you'll over interpret the
answers and we won't be able to repeat
the question because it doesn't it's
there's no time series on it and people
just in that moment like they'll just
react to the question in that kind of
particular cultural moment and then
we'll over interpret it.
>> So if you're in the middle of the Iran
war you're going to feel differently
than if it's
>> Yeah. Yeah. Or even like and also we've
seen massive swings in some of these
things just like one side of the other
of a presidential election. You think
really if like who's in the White House
is massively changing how you feel about
the world, then that's telling us that
this is highly subjective.
>> What was that nuance on Title N that I
texted you about? I thought this was
really interesting. I swear I texted you
about um some guy had done a video and
it was actually of the episode that I
did with Scott, just Scott talking.
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, that's right. And Scott had said,
"Yeah, Title N is used to sort of pull
back men, but yeah,
>> the guy's video said it could also be
used for raising up men."
>> Yeah.
>> What's the nuance?
>> T Yeah, the nuance there is that Title 9
is a is anti-ex discrimination in higher
education, right? It basically just
takes the idea of you can't discriminate
on the basis of sex and it makes it
clear that that's true in higher
education. There is one exception to
that which is undergraduate admissions
to private colleges which I'll come back
to because it's relevant to the answer.
Um but what it basically says is you
can't discriminate on the basis of sex.
And so it was really an
anti-discrimination measure uh not a
strongly affirmative action measure. So
it's not it didn't say to colleges
everything else equal. You should let
women in not men. And there's no
evidence that that's happening. Right?
There's no there's no evidence that the
reason there are more women in college
now than men is because there's a thumb
on the scale in favor of the women.
They're just better in terms of the Is
there a thumb on the scale against the
favor of men?
>> Uh no, not not I have seen absolutely no
evidence for that. In fact, if anything,
most colleges, public or private,
although the publics don't have this
carve out, actually are quite worried
about this. We've got a whole uh we've
got a thing now higher education male
achievement collaborative working with
colleges because they like they they
start to worry once they hit 60 40 65
because not only do their male
applications drop their female
applications start to drop too because
the dating market on a college campus
where there are twice as many women as
men is not awesome for women. So maybe
it comes back to a little bit people who
don't think there's any difference
between men and women should look at the
difference in the dating market on
college campuses that skew to where
there are two women for every man. And I
have had young women saying that they
they look at the gender ratio of
colleges before they decide to apply
because this message has gone out there
now that it's not awesome to be among uh
in a college where there are twice as
many. So no no strong evidence for a
thumb on the scale in against men.
The exception is title 9 carves out
private undergraduate colleges in
undergraduate admissions and the reason
they did that was otherwise you would
have at a stroke abolished the single
sex colleges. You wouldn't have been
able to have single sex colleges. they
have to let Welssley only admit women,
right? But the result of that is that
those colleges do have a thumb on the
scale in favor of men now to try and
stay closer to 50/50. So, it's an open
secret that it's a bit easier to get
into those elite colleges if you're a
guy than if you're a woman.
Did you see there was a dating um
singles mixer that happened in New York
and women
were charged $100 to attend
>> and men were let in free.
>> You're a nightclub promoter. The ratio
was still 3 to1 women to men.
>> So the sex ratio in New York is similar
to well it's a bit more but it's not far
off what it's going to be on college
campuses.
>> Yeah. No the sex ratio is not like that
in New York as a whole. In fact, we we
have empirical data on this. We've
looked at the sex ratios by county,
>> right?
>> And you've seen a shift. So, there are
twice as many u majority male counties
today as there were 20 30 years ago.
>> Okay.
>> Largely because of out migration, we
think out migration by women. And then
there are some urban counties of course
where it's the sex ratio is kind where
there are a lot more
>> into singles than the sex ratio of
singles.
>> No, but we did look um within age cohort
and we do see a difference, but it's of
course nothing like as dramatic as
>> 3 to one. Yeah.
skews a little bit.
>> You know, there's something going up.
Maybe it's a selection mechanism that
>> guys have checked out of the dating
market. Uh maybe it's that women are
pushing more toward trying to find
partners. But
>> yeah, but your example suggests like the
men like there are more women than men
of dating age, let's put it that way, in
New York and
>> who are motivated to
>> but then the question is like who's out,
right? Like who's motivated?
>> Yeah. Who's in who's like you can are
you in the market to come back to the
analogy that I didn't like earlier, but
like are you are you out there doing it?
And so there we might see and you see
like women are more like to travel now
than men. I do think it's like I I don't
see any empirical evidence for this but
my anecdotal sense of it just sort of
traveling around as I do kind of a bit
now is like when you're in a restaurant
or a kind of bar now if you see a group
of young people together for a night out
I think it's more like to be women now.
Again no strong empirical evidence on
that but I just think those kind of
public spaces um if anything maybe a
little bit more more female. M if you
zoom out for 50 years, what do you think
happens for men over the next few
decades? Are you optimistic,
pessimistic? What are you most concerned
about? What are you most hopeful for? Uh
I look, I'm an invent optimist. Uh I do
think the glasses are full.
But for me, I've come to realize is that
my optimism isn't just an orientation or
a personality trait. it is that
I think for me it's getting close to
something like a virtue
>> that to think well of the future um is
is valuable in and of itself um because
I think other otherwise the kind of
messaging to young people more generally
is just so relentlessly negative and
then we kind of blame them for feeling
down right um I'm so I'm pretty
optimistic and the reason I'm optimistic
is because it's it's a hell of a mess
right now like it's very messy it's
goopy figuring ing it out. Some of the
stuff we've talked about here and argued
about here just shows you that
particularly for kind of young men and
young women just kind of figuring out
this new real these new realities.
>> But I think we're kind of past the sort
of we're breaking past I hope more of
the zero sum. We are getting more to a
kind of world where young men and young
women are kind of trying to figure this
out in good faith and I think they will
figure it out. I don't know how but we
always have one way or the other and I
think we will again. And I think that
people are ready to get past some of the
[ __ ] ideological traps that people
have been
trying to put us in for too long. I
really think there's a hunger for that.
I hope so because one of the byproducts
that you have of lots of conflicting
messages, you know, you said the the
pinball or male vertigo, masculinity,
>> masculinity, vertigo. Um where men don't
know what they're supposed to be. that's
supposed to be masculine on a Monday and
then soft on a Tuesday and then a tyrant
on a Wednesday and then you know in
therapy on a Thursday
>> yoga on Friday.
>> Yeah, exactly. Um, one of the problems I
think that can come out of that is a
type of
if there's lots of conflicting messages,
it doesn't convince you of any one
particular message. It just makes you
immune to being convinced. Apathy,
right? that this is what a
disinformation and a misinformation
campaign is supposed to achieve when
it's done on mass as a information
warfare by a foreign adversary. It's not
to convince the populace of one thing or
another all the time. Sometimes it's
just to make them distrust all advice.
Yes. And I think that you know the
checking out of men as a retreat
>> that you have uh a pull in uh screens,
video games, porn.
>> Yeah, this is your weed sedation
>> hypothesation.
This is another twist of it which and
you're right but this is a
>> there is an attractor which is
>> it may be difficult to convince men to
uh not go out into the real world and
try to make stuff happen through
conflicting messages if it wasn't for
the fact that there's something else
that they can do like these two things
need to be happening at once.
>> Yeah. There's push and a pull point.
Yes.
>> Correct. And they're both going in the
same direction. That's why I mean you've
talked I think I know you've talked a
lot about that's why I think it's
consistent with crime going down even as
more young men are disengaged which is
historically I think unprecedented which
is the kind of sedation or some like
like they're on the screens not on the
streets
>> is another way to think about this um
and in some ways I think that makes it a
harder thing to get attention to right I
think if there was if we did if we saw
an increase in crime among young men if
we were seeing like more antisocial
behavior etc then I think it would be
very close to the top the alarm
>> yes
>> because it's more of a silent retreat
and very often you know, turning inward,
that's less like to sound the alarm. But
I actually think in the end, most people
do want to flourish and they do want to
find someone to be with. And I think
that women and men are both seeking
partners and people, someone who's got
someone about them, right? It's got
agency. It's got forward momentum, got
optimism. I think that's going to win. I
think it always has one. I don't know
how it'll win this time, but I'm sure it
will. Yeah. I just hope that uselessness
doesn't be more useless. sedation
doesn't beget more sedation because it's
you're going to have to reverse the
trend here, right? Like you can say
we're worried about there being too many
people on the planet and the population
bomb is a really big deal. You go, well,
if that's going to stop or if that's
going to slow down, it's going to
require reversal of the direction. And
the same thing is true now. If the trend
is moving in the right direction, and
you're right, the the line is between do
we want more useless men or do we want
more dangerous men? If that if those are
the two options that we have in front of
us, that's not a particularly good
[ __ ] scenario. I would say 5149, it's
better to have useless men than
dangerous men. But that's only because
we're in peace time. I would much sooner
have competent, peaceful, right, than
useless or dangerous. Um, I got sent
this morning a new Institute for Family
Studies survey. There's some cool stuff
in here which I think you might like.
uh Institute of Family Studies survey of
2,000 young men
>> aed 18 to 29 challenges nearly
everything being said about the male
crisis in America including by its most
prominent voices on both left and right.
68% of unmarried men want to get married
with another 21% unsure the crisis isn't
lacking desire its circumstance. 59% are
not in a romantic relationship but 74%
of those men are open to dating. So,
there was that famous uh uh twothirds of
men say that they're 50% of men in that
age bracket say that they're not looking
for casual or long-term relationships.
That looks like it's changed. 62% of
childless young men want to be a father.
Less than half of men aged uh 24 to 29
feel like adults, but the benchmarks
most related to feeling like an adult
are the traditional ones. Marriage,
parenthood, full-time work, completing
education. Young men's number one role
model is their mother, 79%.
Followed by their father, 69%.
Andrew Tate ranked last among all
prominent figures.
89% say manhood requires willingness to
sacrifice for others, challenging a
manosphere narrative. Young men who
completed trade school programs are
employed full-time at almost identical
rates to college graduates. 60 77%
versus 80%. An even college educated
young man is skeptical of college with
half saying it wasn't worth the time or
money.
>> There's a mixed bag in there. I'd say,
wouldn't you? Like I'm I'm going, "Yeah,
it was good." That's what that's the
landscape.
>> That was an emotional roller coaster for
me, Chris. I got to tell you, like I I
was cheering up. I was like, "Oh, that's
good. That's bad." Only 62% of childless
men want to be a father. That sounds way
low to me.
>> Childless young men, right? That's under
29.
>> Wow. Want to be a father. I don't know
whether intend to become a father. It
would be interesting to see how they
worded the question.
>> Become a father because it's
interesting. There was this NBC poll
that came out not that long ago. It got
a lot of attention where they ranked uh
men and young men and young women by
whether they'd voted for Harris or not,
right? Uh or Trump. And like number one
for the Trump voting men was family and
kids. And actually men are a bit more
likely to say that they want to have
marriage, get married and have kids now
than women are. That's a reversal. So
I'm finding that that 62% number is low.
I I think the anti-ol thing worries me
because the ROI on college is the same
for men as it is for women roughly
speaking and
>> presumably could increase if you were to
go to college now if in 10 years time we
were to look at how valuable a male
college graduate is in the workforce
because they're going to be increasingly
rare.
>> Uh yeah, just in terms of I mean it's
this is another thing I've had this
argument with Scott about which is that
actually uh college graduates are
getting married as much as they they
have for the last 40 years, right? There
hasn't been a collapse in marriage among
college graduates, even though there's
this massive gender gap in college,
>> right?
>> The collapse in marriage has been among
those without a college degree. That's a
huge class gap. And so the kind of
ftting, the ftting about who will my
daughter marry now that she's got a
college degree. It's like that's just
completely unfounded. There's a flat
line.
>> Um and in fact, if anything, maybe a bit
more like to stay married than their
mothers were because the divorce rates
gone down a bit. So because fewer people
are getting married.
>> Yeah. Well, not among the college
educated. That's the thing. like the the
line the the marriage rate it's about
90%. The marriage rate among college
educated American women basically hasn't
changed for the last 40 50 years.
>> What about among men?
>> College educated men
>> the same because they're matching with
college educated women at about the same
rate even though there's a smaller
number.
>> Exactly. But the I mean it's a bit of a
nuance here. We published on this is
actually college educated women have
always been willing to marry non-oled
educated men um and continue to. So like
20% of them of the women with a college
degree married color to blue collar.
>> Yeah. And it's like it's a very elitist
conversation this because people when
they're talking about this they're
talking about someone who went to some
sort of fancy college. Right. But I'm in
my family I've got nurse married to a
plumber. Right. Nursing requires a
college degree. Right. Does anyone out
there think that nurses are looking down
their noses at plumbers if he's making a
good living and he's doing well? He's
working hard. No I don't. The idea that
that somehow you know or a teacher won't
marry a you know carpenter or just it's
just nonsense. Um so the marriage and
the marriage rate is actually if
anything slightly up. So there was mixed
in there. I didn't like the character.
But yeah, what the thing also think was
untrue. It said challenging this idea in
the manosphere that men don't sacrifice
themselves.
>> Uh 89% say manhood requires willingness
to sacrifice for others. Challenging the
manosphere narrative.
>> Well, as a prominent proponent of the
manosphere,
you think men should sacrifice
a gentle manosphere.
>> I think that they've been kicked out of
the manosphere.
>> I don't know which manosphere they're
talking about. I mean, I guess and also
the tape thing, of course, the tape
thing was really interesting and I don't
remember if we talked about this last. I
mean, it really came back and there was
a kind of I I guess I've lost my friends
at the New York Times by this point in
the interview anyway, but like there's a
New York Times uh headline drove me mad.
I I think I read about it publicly. Tate
returns, MAGA celebrates. And so I went
through I was like that's really
interesting because I've actually I've
actually heard or read Josh Hol Megan
Kelly uh Dantis Dantis AG all condemning
tape
>> Shapiro doesn't like him Shapiro
condemned him. They all like they all
condemned him in that moment. Right. All
that. So I'm like who are you talking
about? And it turned out that it was the
young Republicans of so and so county in
Florida had said we're happy he's back
and we'd love him to come speak to us.
It was literally the only people they
could find celebrating. But the headline
was MAGA celebrates. Yeah.
>> Because again that kind of fitted,
right? We we like this idea that kind of
MAGA wanted Tate back. But like actually
the truth was I I did write about this.
It was like everyone hates Andrew Tate,
right? And that should be when when
radical feminists are
shoulderto-shoulder with Josh Hol and
Ben Shapiro condemning Andrew Tate, then
surely we can take that as a win. Like
isn't this a win?
>> Yeah. Isn't that the headline? I think
we're going to see I think we're going
to see more around the men's movement
MRA come manosphere come incell black
pill lux max in mogan community
especially after Ross Camp and this
Louisu documentary I can't wait for you
to watch it this Louis the thu
documentary on Netflix it's his first
ever Louis Thuru documentary on Netflix
>> and he said it's the final video game
boss of his entire career because it's
all of the things it's casual sex with
only fans It's um sort of uh conspiracy
theorists which he's done a turn. It's
sort of almost cultlike behavior which
he's done previously. It's financial
grifts which he's been a part of as
well. All bundled up into this sort of
Tik Tokification version for 2026.
>> And I with adolescence
with the way that Louis doc was
presented uh I do think that we're going
to see more of a moral panic around
what's happening with young men. I think
that it's going to look a lot like um
these guys are being led astray by bad
actors. Uh there is limited hope
socially. Uh they are uh learning not to
sacrifice for others but to uh dominate
and be doineering. Yeah. Very much so.
It's very very self- serving.
>> Um, it's not
>> great. And, you know, for all that, I
can keep on doing podcasts that
>> I think are accurate and balanced and
and and hopefully really educate people
about what's actually going on. Um,
I don't have the reach of [ __ ] huge
documentaries or or or series, right?
Like Adolescence was a global [ __ ]
phenomenon.
>> It was a huge hit and it was great
drama. It was a great TV show apart from
>> some of the way and again back to I just
think there's a lag here.
>> I actually think that
>> it's a little bit out of step now and
that enough people are starting to say
the moral panic around men, the
pathization of young men, the
demonization of young men is exactly the
wrong thing to do. and and that kind of
narrative rut that everyone's in like
the easy thing to say. I just think it's
out of date and people are realizing
that and they're realizing hasn't it has
not worked out well for anybody for us
as a society to point our fingers at
young men and say what the hell is wrong
with you? You're either lazy or useless
or you're being radicalized or what kind
of this long litany of things that are
wrong with you. I just think enough
people are kind of realizing that that's
a just unbelievably lacking compassion
and b massively counterproductive. So
you're right, the the place that I
actually think is doing the worst at
this is uh online. It's streaming
culture and it's YouTube because there
are not many reasonable voices that do
big plays on social media. There's just
not. There's
>> Wouldn't you count yourself among those
reasonable voices? Were you a big
platform?
>> I were. Yeah. And but I think, you know,
if you're talking about people who are
genuinely engaging with the issues of
boys and men and of of mating and dating
and birth rates and stuff like that, it
it's certainly in the minority to be a
part of the gentleman sphere than it is
to be a part of sort of militant
aggressive feminism
>> or to be a part of sort of classic
reactionary anti-feminism.
>> Yeah. Exactly.
>> Masculinism.
>> Yeah. Um it's this is not it's not
superbly sexy. You know, when I when I
sort of look around at whatever mly
weird Avengers group that I've got, it's
like me, you, Arthur Brooks, Scott
Galloway,
Mack and Murphy, William Costella, Rob
Henderson, maybe Andrew Thomas, uh, like
it is it's a
Alexander dates, but he's sort of
stepped away from things now. It's I'm
not Stephen Shaw kind of he's not really
talking to men like you know it really
sort of runs flat pretty quick. I don't
know who else is is engaging with this
stuff. And then when you were to look at
who does [ __ ] huge plays that
push the narrative in a much more
bombastic way like it's I don't know. I
mean I the long run way to win this is
just to keep doing it Chris.
>> Right. I think this whole idea that
there needs to be this kind of huge play
is going to change. This is going to
change slowly. And I also think we
should give a little bit of credit to
some of the people consuming this
content. I think a lot of young men in
particular are perfectly willing to
listen to this conversation and agree or
disagree with us, but probably agree
that we're having a good faith
conversation as you do with others and
realize that that is different to what
they're going to get from certain other
producers, right? I I go there if I want
a quick laugh or an eye roll. It's
whatever. But I come here if I want a
more serious conversation and then if I
get sufficiently enticed, I'll go and
read some of AIBM's policy briefs.
Right.
>> No question it's going to go viral. It
doesn't get any better than that. But I
just think people are able to be more
discerning about the difference between
these content types.
>> And if you look at their actual behavior
and what's happening, I'm just much more
hopeful. But it just keep doing the work
and then over time I don't know whe this
is going to be a good example or not but
I have although he put me on his reading
list not always been thrilled with the
way President Obama has talked about
this issue
>> especially in the run-up to the last
election but on the podcast he did with
his wife not long ago he said and I
quote we've quite rightly invested in
the girls create a level playing field
so that we could have equality. We have
not been as intentional about investing
in the boys and that has been a mistake
and people are starting to recognize
that
>> when Obama is saying that. Now, of
course, the only bit that got covered
from that podcast was the brief
discussion about their so-called marital
difficulties in the first 3 minutes. the
remaining one-hour long conversation
about the challenges of boys and men
that he had with his wife
uh and his wife's brother whose name
I've forgotten um that didn't get
covered but it's there uh and so I just
think bit by bit person by person
governor by governor you know Ruben Gier
goes out there with his very episode by
episode and because because it's
actually it's actually what people want
in the end
>> also because it's the truth
>> it's true the truth will in the end I do
think is and people can tell the
difference between something that's
truthful and not.
>> Heck yeah. Richard Reeves, ladies and
gentlemen. Richard, where should people
go to keep up to date with whatever you
got going?
>> Well, those policy briefs I mentioned
are all
reading [ __ ] our policy brief on
sports betting is the best best piece of
policy work out there on the very live
issue of sports betting. So, am.org.
>> Cool. Richard, I appreciate you.
>> So fun.
>> Goodbye, everybody.
>> Dude. Yes. So good. Go.
That was so fun. It was a lot better.
>> Thank you very much for tuning in. If
you enjoyed that episode, YouTube knows
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