Link: https://youtu.be/FBgM7jndkLQ

Duration: 147 min

Short Summary

This Huberman Lab episode features Mark Brackett discussing emotion regulation and emotional intelligence, emphasizing that emotions themselves are neutral—it is our strategies for using them that determine outcomes. Brackett introduces the PRIME framework (Prevent, Reduce, Initiate, Maintain, Enhance) and the "meta moment" technique for building space between stimulus and response, while exploring how gender norms, cultural upbringing, and modern technology shape emotional expression and disconnection.

Key Quotes

1. "using your emotions wisely to achieve your goals in life." (00:00:01)
2. "A lot of people think emotion regulation is getting rid of a feeling. It's not what it is. It's just having another relationship to it." (00:00:04)
3. "They think it's like, I got to check in with how I'm feeling all day long and then regulate. Check in, regulate. Like you'd become psychotic if you did that all day long." (00:00:04)
4. "We have to learn how to adopt a mindset around emotions that there are no bad emotions. It's what we do with our emotions that makes them harmful or difficult for us to live our lives." (00:00:04)
5. "Between stimulus and response, there is space." (00:00:55)

Detailed Summary

Huberman Lab Episode Summary: Emotion Regulation and Emotional Intelligence

Emotion Regulation and Emotional Intelligence Overview

Mark Brackett and Andrew Huberman discuss the science of emotion regulation and the concept of emotional intelligence, framing emotions as neutral events whose impact depends on the strategies we employ. Brackett defines the fundamental equation ER = (goals + strategies) = function of (emotion + person + context) to capture this relationship.

• ER is expressed as the sum of goals and strategies, which are modulated by the specific emotion, the individual, and the context.
• No emotions are inherently bad; their effect depends on how they are used.
• The PRIME acronym (Prevent, Reduce, Initiate, Maintain, Enhance) outlines five emotion‑regulation goals.

The PRIME Framework

Brackett introduces the PRIME framework as a categorical tool for identifying emotion‑regulation objectives. Each goal addresses a distinct phase of emotional experience, and strategies must be customized accordingly.

• Prevent: stop an emotion from escalating before it takes hold.
• Reduce: decrease the intensity or duration of an already active emotion.
• Initiate: spark a desired emotion when it is not presently present.
• Maintain: sustain an emotion over an extended period to support ongoing goals.
• Enhance: amplify a useful emotion to maximize its beneficial impact.
• Strategies are selected based on the specific emotion type, the person’s history, and the situational context; there is no one‑size‑fits‑all method.

The Meta Moment Technique

The meta moment is a practical pause tool developed by Brackett with colleague Robin to create deliberate space between a stimulus and a response. It involves a brief 20–30 second check‑in that helps individuals sense triggers and access their best version of themselves in a given role.

• Pause: stop before reacting, allowing a window of reflection.
• Label: name the emotion that has just arisen, e.g., anger, sadness, excitement.
• Attribute: identify the actual cause, separating perception from reality.
• Strategize: decide whether the emotion will be helpful in the current context and, if not, choose a regulation tactic.
• The process can be applied in real‑time during conversations, meetings, or high‑stress situations.

Gender, Culture, and Emotional Expression

The conversation explores how societal gender norms and cultural upbringing shape the range of emotions people feel comfortable expressing. Boys are often discouraged from displaying self‑conscious emotions such as sadness or shame, while outward emotions like anger receive more tolerance.

• Boys receive stronger inhibition against expressing sadness, shame, or vulnerability compared to girls.
• Andrew describes his own experience with social anxiety as an introvert, reflecting cultural expectations around introversion.
• Brackett’s father grew up in the British school system, where smiling was mistakenly linked to stupidity, influencing family emotional norms.
• Mark recounts being bullied for appearing visibly happy at school, illustrating the social cost of deviating from emotional norms.
• Research indicates that people who pursue constant happiness actually experience lower well‑being, whereas those who seek contentment report higher life satisfaction.

Disconnection and Modern Technology

Modern digital devices and platforms are contributing to widespread emotional disconnection, with a notable rise in anxiety, stress, and depression among young people. Brackett highlights that about 20 % of adolescents now turn to AI technology as a surrogate therapist or companion.

• Approximately 20 % of adolescents use AI chatbots or virtual companions as a primary source of emotional support.
• The technological trajectory from video games to Walkman, internet, email, social media, and now AI consistently pulls attention away from in‑person relationships.
• Consistent increases in anxiety, stress, and depression correlate with heightened screen time and reduced face‑to‑face interaction.
• Brackett argues that AI cannot replace genuine human connection and may reflect a fear of intimacy.

Schools, Systems, and Co‑Regulation

School environments that embed emotional intelligence training and leadership modeling show measurable improvements in student and staff well‑being. Data shows that frustration levels drop significantly when school leaders practice self‑regulation and co‑regulation.

• Schools where leaders demonstrated self‑regulation and co‑regulation reported a 40 % reduction in reported frustration levels.
• The RULER emotional‑intelligence program has been implemented across 21 schools in Harlem, serving thousands of students, teachers, and school leaders.
• Effective modeling combines emotion sharing with actionable strategies: “I’m feeling this way, and here’s what I’m doing about it.”
• Co‑regulation aims to empower individuals to develop their own self‑regulation capacities, not to create dependency.

Emotional Intelligence as Skill Development

Brackett frames emotional intelligence as a set of trainable skills, organized into five core components, with regulation positioned at the top of the hierarchy. Mastery follows a three‑phase progression similar to physical fitness.

• Five components: emotion perception, understanding, labeling, expression, and regulation.
• Regulation sits at the top of the hierarchy, indicating its role as the culminating skill that integrates the other four.
• The development trajectory mirrors physical fitness: learning phase (can I get through this?), change phase (life improves slightly), identity phase (emotion regulation is part of who I am).
• The goal is to shift from automatic, habitual, unhelpful reactions to deliberate, conscious, helpful responses.

Practical Application: The Point of Connection Game

Brackett designed “The Point of Connection,” a card‑based activity that prompts people to ask meaningful questions without relying on digital tools. The game is intended for social gatherings, workplaces, or any setting where authentic connection is desired.

• Cards contain open‑ended questions crafted to spark deeper conversation.
• The activity works without apps, Wi‑Fi, or smartphones, encouraging face‑to‑face interaction.
• Participants can use the game at parties, team‑building events, or classrooms to practice emotional expression and listening skills.

Activation States: Positive and Negative Emotions

Both positive anticipation and anxiety produce similar physiological activation, underscoring that the valence of an emotion does not determine its intensity. Recognizing this similarity can help individuals apply regulation strategies regardless of whether the emotion is perceived as good or bad.

• Heart rate, hormone release, and neural activation patterns are comparable in excitement and anxiety.
• Positive emotions such as excitement can be just as problematic as anger if unchecked.
• Understanding that activation is emotion‑type dependent aids in selecting appropriate regulation tactics.

Future Cultural Standards for Emotional Maturity

Younger generations who internalize evidence‑based emotion‑regulation tools are likely to reshape cultural expectations around emotional maturity. This shift could establish new norms for how societies value and practice emotional intelligence.

• Adoption of tools like the meta moment and PRIME may become a baseline expectation in education and workplaces.
• As these practices spread, cultural standards could evolve to view emotional regulation as a core competency rather than an optional attribute.
• Future societies may expect adults to demonstrate both self‑regulation and co‑regulation skills as standard professional conduct.

Full Transcript

Show transcript

A lot of people think emotion regulation
is getting rid of a feeling. It's not
what it is. It's just having another
relationship to it. I've had anxiety or
live with it for a lot of my life, but
sometimes I just say hello to it. It's
like, "Hey, how you doing today?" And it
goes away pretty quickly or it just sits
there. I think that's the other thing
about emotion regulation that people
kind of misunderstand. They think it's
like, I got to check in with how I'm
feeling all day long and then regulate.
Check in, regulate. Like you'd become
psychotic if you did that all day long.
>> Most of the time our emotions are in the
background, you know, like if you
thought about your feelings all day
long, you wouldn't be able to do this
podcast. Like that's unproductive.
Emotions matter when there's a shift in
our environment or the relationships.
You know, if you said something that
offended me, boom, I'm activated. I'm
feeling angry or kind of shocked. Then I
have to make a choice in that moment
like how do I manage it? That's where
the magic happens. Welcome to the
Huberman Lab podcast where we discuss
science and science-based tools for
everyday life.
I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor
of neurobiology and opthalmology at
Stanford School of Medicine. My guest
today is Dr. Mark Brackett. Dr. Mark
Brackett is a professor of psychology at
Yale University where he is also the
director of Yale Center for Emotional
Intelligence. He is an expert in the
science of emotions and how to apply
that to improve communication and
relationships and performance in school
and work. One common problem around
discussions of emotions and emotional
intelligence is that they are often
vague and frankly somewhat soft and
cliche. But not when Mark Brackett
explains emotional intelligence as he
does today because he talks about the
practical tools that emerge from the
science of emotional intelligence that
you can use to improve your emotional
life both with yourself and with others.
And he's not just going to tell us to
feel our emotions more deeply. While
that could be important in certain
settings, his research in and out of the
laboratory is really focused on the
small things that we can all do both in
moments of emotion, but also on our own
that can greatly increase our ability to
understand what we're feeling,
communicate it effectively, and to be
better listeners, especially in moments
that would otherwise create tension or
confusion. In fact, what he shares today
are life skills. the sort of life skills
that make everything school,
friendships, romantic relationships,
professional life, and family life far
more effective and enriching. So, I'm
confident that you'll come away from
today's episode with Mark Brackett
knowing what to do and when to use the
tools that you'll learn, and they are
indeed very powerful to improve your
life. Before we begin, I'd like to
emphasize that this podcast is separate
from my teaching and research roles at
Stanford. It is however part of my
desire and effort to bring zero cost to
consumer information about science and
science related tools to the general
public. In keeping with that theme,
today's episode does include sponsors.
And now for my discussion with Dr. Mark
Brackett. Dr. Mark Brackett, welcome.
>> Thank you. Glad to be back. So much to
discuss today about emotion regulation,
about
the kids, the future. Are the kids all
right?
>> They could be better.
>> Mhm.
and our obligation, our generation,
other generations, and you know,
providing a world where kids can thrive
and where everyone can thrive. It's it's
a bit of a mess out there, but you're
going to put some clarification on
things for people. You're doing amazing
work to give people tools for emotion
regulation and more. So, let's start off
and define emotion regulation. What is
that?
>> Yeah. Well, I think the simplest way to
define it is using your emotions wisely
to achieve your goals in life. It's a
little too broad. And so, it's funny. As
I was writing my book, I decided I need
a formula. And so, my formula is ER,
which is emotion regulation, is a set of
goals and strategies. So it's e r
parenthesis g plus s and that equals a
function of
e plus p plus c. You know made me feel
smart. Emotion,
>> person context.
>> Mhm.
>> So what I mean by that specifically is
that it's a goal oriented process. You
have to want to regulate. You can
prevent unwanted emotions. I have an
acronym for that too. It's prime. You
can prevent unwanted emotions. You can
reduce the difficult ones. I think
people forget the I initiate emotions
like when you're teaching or leading or
presenting like you want to create an
emotion in the room. That's
upregulating. You can maintain an
emotion like you know I'm having a good
day. I'm going to avoid these things to
just keep it going. Savor the moment.
And then there's enhancing which is kind
of boosting an emotion. So that's prime.
That's the goals. The strategies we can
talk about for hours. Um we'll get into
that a little bit later. And then I
think what's most people misunderstand
is that like what we regulate our
emotions and like what I do for example
to deal with my anxiety is really
different than my anger
than my worry or other emotions and that
it's a function of the emotion you're
feeling. It's a function of me as an
individual. You know I am on the
neurotic side. uh I'm on the introverted
side and so my strategy selection would
be influenced by that and then the
context like right here right now like I
know you're into fitness and like
running and you know all this kind of
stuff and I'm like Andrew I'm really
nervous right now like do you mind if we
take a break and I go for a run like you
know it's a little weird Mark so context
matters you got to like right now if I
were anxious it's like Mark you got to
use some cognitive strategies or
breathing work I can't go anywhere so
I'm stuck and I think people need to see
that kind of full spectrum.
>> I feel like there's a close tie between
emotion regulation and self-awareness.
>> Yeah.
>> But I feel like there's a tension
between self-awareness and being able to
experience and enjoy life. For instance,
if I'm feeling anxious,
I I'm thinking about how I'm appearing,
how I'm sounding, that it's
uncomfortable. Um, but if I get totally
outside of that and just be in the
experience that I'm in, uh, then there's
the potential to say the wrong thing or,
you know, uh, offend somebody or who
knows. So, when we talk about emotion
regulation, what's the best approach to
that that doesn't keep us in a subtext
in our mind and and sort of out of the
room? Because when we're alone, it's
>> quite a bit different. We can we can
breathe. We can use whatever
self-regulation tools we want, ruminate
or or ruminate or write or, you know, or
text or call a friend, whatever it is.
But when we're at work, at school, uh,
on a podcast, if if there's that subtext
like, uh, I'm I'm not locked in here.
I'm not in the experience completely.
I'm I'm I'm self-regulating or paying
attention to myself, that can be very
uncomfortable in its own right. It's
work.
>> Yeah, it's effortful. Uh, and not always
the best effort if it's going down the
rabbit hole. I think that you're getting
at which is this mindset piece that the
first step is our mindset about our
feelings. So let me ask you what's your
mindset around anxiety?
Um I
well I have assumptions around it. I was
telling someone the other day because I
spend a lot of time alone and I'm fairly
introverted. If I go into a crowded
environment, for the first five, six
minutes, I'm feeling kind of
overwhelmed, like, who wa it's really
crowded in here. There are a lot of
people. And I I actually feel like I
have a bit of a social interaction
disorder for those first few minutes.
But then after about 20 30 minutes, I'm
in that experience and I'm feel like I
very comfortable. So I have this mindset
that social anxiety is something that um
is like waiting into water. It's always
a little bit too cold at first or
usually is a little too cold, but over
time you acclimate.
>> All right, you didn't answer the
question.
>> Okay,
>> so I got to frame it another way. What's
your relationship to anxiety?
>> I hate it.
>> Okay, there you go. See how you
automatically were like, I hate anxiety.
I did too for most of my life. And then
I was with a friend who's a
neuroscientist about anxiety and she
said to me, Mark, tell me all the things
that make you anxious. I said, 'Well,
I'm anxious about fundraising and you
know, I got to raise the money to keep
the research going. I'm anxious to make
I want to make sure that like everything
we do is high quality. And I went on and
on and then she asked me another
question. She said, "Well, what do those
have in common?" I'm like, "What are you
talking about?" And then I thought about
it and I said, "Well, those are things
that are important to me."
And so she said, "So why would anxiety
be a bad thing?"
And I think that we have to learn how to
adopt a mindset around emotions that
there are no bad emotions. It's what we
do with our emotions that makes them
harmful or difficult for us to live our
lives. But anxiety
is a good thing. It's saying there's
perceived uncertainty around the future.
Like I'm anxious about how I'm going to
act in this environment or how I'm going
to be perceived this environment. It's
not a bad thing because you want to be
perceived well. But if you automatically
assume it's bad, then it's going to put
you on the path to dysregulation.
>> So if we accept the idea that all
emotions are okay,
>> yeah,
>> but that the expression of all emotions
is in every context is not okay. That it
should be context specific.
>> Yes.
>> Um I actually think that provides some
freedom. I can feel that freedom. Like
it's okay to be super angry. It's okay
to be frustrated. it's okay to be
anxious. Uh but how that's expressed is
what's critical. Uh it makes good
intuitive sense. I think that what's
hard to know is what to do with the
emotion if there is no outward
expression of it like like where should
it go?
>> Well, it doesn't have to go anywhere
sometimes. Sometimes it can just be.
>> And that's a big part of regulation,
which is that a lot of people think
emotion regulation is getting rid of a
feeling. It's not what it is. It's just
having another relationship to it. Like
I've been I'm 56.
I've had anxiety or live with it for a
lot of my life, but sometimes I just say
hello to it. It's like, "Hey, how you
doing today?" And it goes away pretty
quickly or it just sits there. I think
that's the other thing about emotion
regulation that people kind of
misunderstand. They think it's like, I
got to check in with how I'm feeling all
day long and then regulate. Check in,
regulate. Like you'd become psychotic if
you did that all day long. Most of the
time our emotions are in the background,
you know, like if you thought about your
feelings all day long, you wouldn't be
able to do this podcast. Like that's
unproductive. Emotions matter when
there's a shift in our environment or
the relationships. You know, if you said
something that offended me, boom, I'm
activated. I'm feeling angry or kind of
shocked. Then I have to make a choice in
that moment like how do I manage it?
That's where the magic happens. But on a
day-to-day basis, thank God we're not,
you know, we wouldn't want to do that.
>> I would like to take a quick break and
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>> I'd love to poke at some of the
assumptions that I know I have, but I
wonder if other people have as well.
>> My dad's from South America, and I
remember long ago he said because he
went to formal schools, um he said that
he was raised with this terrible idea,
he called it terrible, that um if
somebody was happy and they smiled a
lot, that they were stupid. And I said,
"What is that about?" And he said, well,
that came in his words from the British
school system where uh the idea was that
you were supposed to be um skeptical of
things and that if you were happy or
happy golucky and you weren't drinking
that people would assume that you were
an idiot because you weren't bothered by
the problems in the world and you were
accepting of the things that you heard
and were told. In other words, you're an
idiot. And my dad's a very happy person
now. Sure. And
>> he has talked about, you know, having to
break that mold that like it's okay to
wake up and take a walk and and be happy
that it's okay to be happy. And so
that's just one thing that I I think I
grew up thinking too, not and maybe not
to that extreme that that if especially
in academia, like if you're not disc
like to be happy is to not be
discerning. It's a totally false. Right.
>> Of course.
>> Now we're a long way from England right
now. Um uh and that's probably something
more of my dad's generation than mine.
But I think the idea nowadays does seem
to be that if you're happy golucky and
you're feeling good that you must not be
thinking about all the terrible things
going on in the world or that it's
insensitive to those that are suffering
etc etc. I'd love your thoughts on this
this idea that we don't give ourselves
permission to feel as good as we might
feel because of some social pressure or
assumptions that we've internalized
>> which is all learned
>> and so this is these are learned
phenomenon
>> and it's sometimes outside influence so
talk about happiness you know as I was
writing and I was doing the chapter on
mindsets around emotion and talking
about this relationship with different
emotions and you know it play around
with this all day long. I could say,
"What's your relationship to anger?
What's your relationship to happiness
and contentment?" And all of a sudden,
you start realizing, "Wow, I have a
complicated relationship with my
emotions." And I was thinking about it
with happiness, too. And for me, what's
interesting, which is different
completely from your dad's, is because
of my kind of tough childhood and a lot
of bullying, is that I would go to
school one day and I would be happy and
I'd see the bullies and all of a sudden
they'd say things like, you know, what
are you so happy about today, bracket?
And I didn't realize that
until I was writing. And then I would
get on stage and give a I do a lot of
public speaking and I'd be standing
there like feeling really good with my
speaking and then I get the applause at
the end and I would start kind of
looking down and I started realizing I'm
uncomfortable being happy
>> like I'm I'm waiting for something to go
wrong
because you know in my childhood like
happy meant like you know we're going to
bring you down. We all have these kind
of developmental
um connections, for lack of a better
term, to our different emotions. And I
think that it gets back to the
phenomenon. There's no good or bad
emotions. Life firstly, some of it is
genetic and biological. You know, our
proclivity to experience certain
emotions. The regulation piece is all
learned. Like you're not born with a,
you know, a pocket full of
evidence-based strategies to regulate.
And it's just like like you know I don't
know about you growing up you know my
father was very different. My father was
the angry guy and he'd say son you got
to toughen up. I'm like dad look at me
you know come on let's move on it's not
happening. And you know that I have a
fifth degree black butt. I became the
tough guy that my father wanted me to
be. But nevertheless you know what does
that even mean? But you know growing up
when I was struggling my parents missed
a lot of the cues come down the stairs.
Because I didn't have my father say,
"Son, I'm noticing a shift in your
emotions today. Your posture is
different. Your facial expression is
different. Let me give you a
research-based strategy to help you
regulate your anxiety, stress, pressure,
fear." No. It was just there was no it
wasn't even a construct. I mean, I don't
know. But did you grow up with a
a concept of emotion regulation?
>> Definitely
>> you did.
>> And it there was a big gender split
>> in my home. I had the sort of belief uh
based on the context that women could
express their emotions big or small and
that uh men weren't supposed to lose
their temper. Men weren't supposed to uh
be angry.
>> That's interesting. It's kind of counter
the way people think about it nowadays,
right? Like oh yeah, the men are like
the more power you have, the more anger
you can express.
>> Oh, the complete opposite of that. In
fact, and I don't think he'll mind. my
dad's been on this podcast and we have a
great relationship uh now and um and
we've done work and it's been awesome. I
mean it's really it really has. I mean
uh and I remember when I was a kid if he
got angry he he would blink
>> and I and now I know that as like
behavioral suppression you know um he
was like blinking but I can't ever
remember my dad having an outburst ever.
So I just internalized this idea like
okay you you don't have outbursts but I
have a certain side of my family that um
my extended family that's um from New
Jersey.
>> And um where words are sometimes used as
weapons.
>> Okay.
>> And anger is a bit more outward
sometimes at least in that side. And
then I have a South American side where
things are more um you know formal and
boxed away and and I think I
internalized a bit of both. and and um
so I have all sorts of constructs around
who's allowed to express
>> emotions and what extremes but now I
didn't observe a lot of uh anger
>> or maybe a little suppression
>> lots of suppression lots of suppression
>> which is regulation it just
>> not the adaptive kind usually
>> right right and I you know I probably
averaged the two you know in my own life
but in terms of happiness I I think uh
the same thing now that I I think about
it that Um so okay K uh for um women to
be fully expressive and for men to be
you know it's a bit more of the you know
kind of the 1950s model was that was
very present in in my home and in my
mind in my mind. Yeah.
>> Yeah. I can think with happiness as with
any emotion.
>> It's about
the time and the place for happiness.
It's like you can't we have research
that shows that people who strive to be
happy all the time actually are more
miserable because it's hard to live up
to that all the time. You know, people
who strive for more contentment in their
life actually seem to have greater
well-being. Um, and so I just think
again it goes back to these mindsets
around emotions that uh there's no good
or bad emotion.
Anger is fine. Obviously, if it's too
intense and it's lasting too long, it's
probably not going to be good. Happiness
is something that we should, you know,
experience. But, you know, if we're
attached to it, it's going to be
problematic because every day is not a
sunny day. There are rainy days, too.
And you got to be comfortable with the
rainy days. And
the important thing also is not just our
feelings, about our feelings. It's also
about our mindsets around our capacity
to deal with those feelings. like do I
believe I am capable of managing my
anger? Do I believe I'm capable of
dealing with the disappointment? And we
find a distribution of scores for that
too. Like going back to my dad, we have
very different fathers. My father would
say things like, "Son, this is the way I
deal with my anger. You're going to have
to get used to it." You know, I would
say now, like, "Sounds like you got a
fixed mindset, Dad. Like, there are
other options, you know, to to deal with
your anger." But he was sort of like,
"This is the way I am. you're going to
have to deal with it. No learning
interests. Whereas nowadays, I hope to
help people see, wait a minute, is that
emotion working for you in your
relationships or not? If it's not, there
are alternatives.
I
>> mean, we're talking about boys and men
quite a bit already here. So, maybe we
just continue in that in that direction,
even though we will touch on um uh girls
and women and uh emotions as it relates
to them, too. I I hear a lot nowadays
about
problems for boys and young men in
emotion regulation, in defining
masculinity. Um, I'm obviously
interested in this, but I also
acknowledge that I'm Gen X. I was born
in 1975. Things were very different. And
I and I know I have a giant blind spot
to their experience, right? I just do. I
acknowledge that because
I don't really have a finger on the
pulse of of what life is like for a
15year-old or 12year-old or 20-year-old
guy out there. What are the pain points
and what's going right?
>> Yeah, there's a lot going on. And I
think probably the big issue here with
gender is vulnerability.
that historically this is not just now
this is going back to when we were kids
when our parents were kids you know go
back to other periods in you know in the
in time is that vulnerability especially
for men is weak. You got to be tough.
You're the you know the person who has
to you know make the ends meet. You're
the you know the hunter gatherer. And
obviously times have changed. And what
we find is that the thought
today for many boys and men to be
emotional. Firstly, emotional alone has
a connotation of feminine and out of
control. That's just the way people
think about it
>> still.
>> Yes.
>> Really? Wow.
>> When you say don't be so emotional,
>> it's considered to be a negative thing.
It's considered to be feminine and it's
considered to be like a hysterical
um that's why we I like to call it
emotion skills not emotional skills.
That's anyway. So vulnerability is a big
piece of it. Let's this is going to be a
great conversation between two guys. So
what's your relationship to
vulnerability?
>> Totally context dependent.
>> Okay.
>> I mean there are people I'm not afraid
at all to cry in front of. Mhm.
>> There are contacts and people that I
would never cry. I mean, I've cried on
very public broadcast two.
>> Mhm.
>> Maybe three. One here when Martha Beck
came on, she really
>> she uh she wasn't trying, but you know,
it was happening. And then on Steen
Bartlett's podcast, I think perhaps on
another, and it was tough. I mean, it
was I I didn't want to watch those
clips, but
>> I'm glad I did it. Um uh so totally
context dependent.
>> Yeah. And that makes sense. What I'm
really pushing for is like around
emotion and about conver talking about
feelings.
>> And so what we find is that boys
generally feel more inhibited just
saying how they feel especially when it
comes to kind of the sad disappointment,
you know, ashamed emotions. It's much
easier to express the anger, you know,
and the outwardly expressive emotions,
but the deep ones that are
self-conscious, you know, that make you
vulnerable.
um tends to be tough and uh and the
question is why is that the case? What
are your hypothesis? Why would it be
that so many boys feel like they're
going to be perceived as feminine if
they say they're disappointed or sad or
ashamed?
What immediately comes to mind is that
somehow it is linked with the word
incapable or incapability.
>> Exactly. There's an incredible video of
David Gogggins breaking down crying on
stage.
>> Um, and he was celebrated for that.
>> But David Gogggins did a lot of things
beforehand.
>> And no one denies his capability.
>> Yeah.
>> His ability. Uh, so when he cried, it
was like, awesome. He's willing to go to
this really hard place. Yet another
difficult thing that David can do that
most people can't do.
>> And you just go like, awesome. and he's
owning it. And I stepped back from that
and realized we already knew former Navy
Seal went from 300 plus pounds to this
fit individual,
you know, Gogggins, he's a verb, an
adjective and a you know, and a pronoun,
right? So, it's like
>> [ __ ] you know, if someone else just
breaks down on stage, you go,
>> okay, like I hope this guy can make it
in life. That's the the narative
>> it's like weak.
>> You worry sometimes for people like
that. I don't worry about David Gogggins
>> because he's a superstar and we have a
different mindset around him again and
so he has the permission to do whatever
the hell he wants.
>> Yeah, that permission thing, forgive me,
but this this notion of earned the
right. I mean, there are people like
James Cameron who wrote all these movies
and was famous for like doing all these
super difficult things and then a few
years back was like claiming that
testosterone poisoned men and that his
testosterone was the worst thing. And
everyone that liked his movies said,
"Hey, listen, easy for you to say now
you built that career
>> on some of that." So, it wasn't, in my
opinion, taken that seriously. He may
not like it if he hears this, but like
I'm like it's like when our colleagues
are like, "Oh, I'm no longer going to
publish in nature and science. I'm going
to go to these like, you know, these
open source journals." Like you got in
the National Academy on Nature and
Science papers. So like you're not
kidding anybody. Well, that you're
making an important point which is that
once you you know I always find it
interesting with celebrities once they
become super famous I can now disclose
you know I've been depressed or I've
been anxious or I've been overwhelmed
but for some reason you know they didn't
want to take that risk when they were
younger in their careers because again
the perception is like oh anxiety
depression whatever it is that's weak
and so that's the point the point is is
that we raise kids, boys in particular,
to believe that these feminine type
emotions, which are not feminine by
nature, they're just human emotions, are
weak. And therefore, that means I'm
going to be perceived as not only weak,
but potentially homosexual. And that's
also a stigma. And so, what do I do? I
suppress. I deny. I ignore.
Interestingly enough, for women, what
the research shows is that much less
likely to suppress or deny,
much more likely to ruminate.
>> Couple of things. First of all, I I feel
like, and I could be wrong, but I feel
like the the stereotype of uh gay men
being feminine has fallen away somewhat.
You know, I grew up, you know, in the
skateboarding community. There's Brian
Anderson. he was big expose in the not
expose where they exposed him where he
voluntarily you know came out in the New
York Times and he's like he's one of the
most aggressive you know you know
skateboarders out there aggressive in
the skateboarding right so he's big dude
you know so I feel like that stereotype
has kind of shifted a bit where people
assume that there's a range
>> I think that you're ambitious there
>> I think you're right I mean we know
>> so being gay is still [ __ ]
>> yeah for M okay.
>> I mean, if you ask
a hundred people to
uh run like a gay man,
>> they're still caught in the Revenge of
the Nerds.
>> Yeah. They're going to they're going to
show you someone who's, you know, more
feminine or, you know, kind of
stereotypically feminine to be honest
with you. So while there you we know I
mean certainly I remember um when I was
18 I went to a gay bar and I I grew up
in New Jersey. It was very homophobic.
The only gay person I really knew was my
mother's hairdresser who was very
flamboyant and then I went to this gay
bar and I was like oh my god it's like
Wall Street executives here you know
football players. It was a total you
know u shift in my perception.
Nevertheless, if you ask the majority of
people, it's still considered to be, you
know, the mindset is feminine.
>> Got it. Yeah. I guess if you um grew up
training in gyms, which I did, you're
around a lot of like very strong uh
physically strong Yeah.
>> um gay men. They were kind of early to
the gym culture, you know, as a uh so so
maybe my my lens on that is a little
distorted. There's something interesting
around this notion of um [ __ ]
showing emotion and boys and we earlier
we were talking about the movie Stand by
Me movie I absolutely love and it's just
like a perfect story. It's a Stephen
King story, right? Turned into a movie.
Um I think Rob Reiner wrote that movie.
>> Yeah. Um, and what's interesting about
that movie, it's the transition be that
happens right around puberty and between
junior, it's right before junior high
school or oh, it's between junior high
and high school, I can't remember. Some
some transition and the kids are at
different developmental stages. I feel
like this is a big part of it where like
let's say a kid is um a little bit more
emotional, a little more um coddled at
home perhaps. This is I'm making a lot
of assumptions here. and cries in front
of a group of boys when you're in the
seventh or eighth grade. Some of those
boys are are because of their stage of
maturation, they're not really little
kids anymore. They're like, "Dude, what
are you doing?" And then you've mixed
all those kids together and because of
the way that schools and social dynamics
are that can stay with a kid for a long
time like being sort of having an
emotional expression
>> that can stick with you for like
>> two three years of school right so I
feel like some of this stuff comes about
that way which is very different than
like an um just I guess like a
hypothetical scenario uh an adult male
um in the business ice, maybe he's new
at, you know, uh where there's things
tend to uh equalize a bit in terms of
maturational stage. And so these are two
different things, boys crying versus
young men crying versus quote unquote
grown men crying.
>> Again, this is all nurture.
So if you go to schools that do our
work, I just interviewed a bunch of
teenage boys actually, it blow your
mind. They have a whole different
perception of emotion. I I ask him these
questions about men and boys and you
know and their responses are like huh
like what's wrong with crying like
if you feel like crying you cry like are
you sure you know even
>> no no no ridicule
>> no ridicule
>> I said well what if you get into a fight
can you like talk to the kid about what
happened and like tell them how you felt
when they left you out and they're like
of course that's what that's how we grew
up that's but they grew up in a school
that took emotion seriously. They gave
them the skills and the resources to do
it. It reminds me, actually, I never
forget this, you know, since we're on
this topic of boys and men. I was in the
beginning of my career doing training in
emotional regulation in London, outside
of London, a very kind of rough and
tough neighborhood. And uh the head
mistress, as they call it back then of
the school, she looked at me, she's
like, "You know something, Mark? this
program is going to turn the boys into
homosexuals. I'm like, okay, like
where'd that come from? You like I'm
thinking to myself like you need a lot
more training than just emotional
intelligence. But I'll put that aside
for a minute. Anyhow, I said, you know,
I'm here. So, can we just go and do it?
Let me let me demonstrate it. Not a
problem. Go like a fishbowl. Here I am
like the teacher in the middle of the
room. I have like 25 teachers around me
and like 20 kids in the middle. and I
start sharing a story about my life,
whatever it was. I was about probably
feeling discouraged. I think it was one
of when I first got into the martial
arts, you know, it was tough. I was not
a tough boy and I was afraid of my
shadow and I had been had all this
bullying and abuse and going into a
karate studio. It was a big shock for
me. I happened to have an amazing
teacher who transformed my life and
became a career of mine in martial arts.
Anyhow, I told a story about that about
how I failed my yellow bell and I just
hated myself and like not only was I
bullied, but I couldn't even get a
freaking yellow bell, discouraged,
hopeless. And these everybody's looking
at me like, "Where's this going?" And
the teachers, the kids were like glued.
They loved hearing the story. And then I
said, "I'm just curious.
Has anyone else ever felt the way I
felt?"
And I said, "Just raise your hand if
you've had that kind of feeling." Every
freaking kid in the classroom raised
their hand. And of course, I look over
at that head mistress and I'm like, you
know, let's let's talk later.
Kids are dying to express their
emotions. Boys and girls, we had we
we've just socialized it. And the
socialization piece is really important
because even the way fathers talk to
their boy children, you know, is
different. you know, it's the toughen
up. It's da da da. They use more feeling
words with their with girls and with
boys. We're not born that way. We are
socialized into, you know, having these
complicated relationships with certain
emotions. But
it's not something that can't be
modified with good instruction.
>> You're saying this, I'm realizing I
internalized so many things that skew my
perspective on this. I guess I should
say I'm relieved to hear that expression
of emotions among boys is more accepted
now. I think that's
>> the generation that's going through this
work. The kids who are growing up in
places that are not taking emotions
seriously are growing up in a more or
with a more stereotypical way of viewing
it.
>> It's got to be infused into your life.
You got to have these conversations. You
got to be in situations where like in
our work, just to give you an example,
like we're really rigorous about
teaching this stuff. This isn't just
sort of like kumbaya sitting in a
circle. This is like, "All right,
everyone, we've got a problem here.
There's, you know, the gaga pit, which
is in these, you know, this thing in
schools. You know, there's a kid who
nobody is, you know, allowing to
participate. That kid feels awful.
What's our obligation? What are we
supposed to do to handle that? Imagine
you're that kid. Imagine you're the one
that nobody wants to be, you know, part
of the game." Now, we're going to get
into groups and we're going to think
about A, what are the feelings? B, what
are the solutions? What do you do for
yourself? what do you do for the other
person? And it's like rigorous
conversations around the techniques and
they got to roleplay it. And then we ask
questions about the role play. It's
like, well, what if it goes wrong? What
happens if you say this? And they say,
go blank yourself. What do you do then?
And that's the kind of complex,
you know, muscle building we're giving
kids in terms of dealing with emotions.
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subscription. there is a hardwired uh
bias towards rough and tumble play in
males of all of all species including
ours. I think what you're talking about
a little bit is a capacity also for kind
of rough and tumble verbal and emotional
exchange which is not necessarily like f
you and this and that like but some of
that is can be ingested some of it can
be really damaging there's something
interesting that I learned a long time
ago it even in academia he's now dead
but there was a a very famous
neuroscientist I'll never forget like
went to my first Mcnite meeting I was so
like excited to be there and he came
over. He was, you know, he's pretty
large guy and he grabbed me. I grabbed
me and he and he goes, "So, where are
you?" I was picking between laboratories
between this place and that place. He
goes, "Where's it going to where's it
going to be?" And then he kind of gave
me his advice. And then and that was a
very comfortable exchange for me cuz
like I grew up with a lot of physical
interaction. Usually guys not putting
their arm around me and like telling me
like so what's it going to be kind of
thing. But often times, you know, if I
interact with somebody that's kind of
like an old friend or something, there's
they'll grab my shoulder, you know, just
walking by, there's a lot of just kind
of physical interaction that just
happens. It certainly doesn't feel weird
or aversive.
>> And I could see if somebody, for
instance, was not used to like just a
lot of physical interaction uh with
other people that that could feel like a
lot. And so I'm wondering nowadays where
where are things with respect to sort of
just the amount of physical interaction
between kids? Are they like just feeling
and voicing their emotions but they're
like at at a physical distance or are
they uh you know seeing one another and
like handshakes and hugs, what's up and
you know like you know just friendly the
kind of physical banter.
>> I think it's cultural. It's there's a
lot of there's a lot going on there in
terms of you know the type of school and
you know where it is in the United
States or in the world. You know, touch
is a is a cultural thing.
But I think, you know, what I want to
say about what you said is that rough
and tumble is fine. Of course, you know,
rough and tumble, but there's when it
becomes a power over, that's when it
becomes a problem. When you have no
concern for the emotional life of the
other, this is
>> bullying. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
>> Yeah. the dialogue that sort of
establishes hierarchy, I guess, is what,
if I'm really blunt about it, I just
feel like that just sort of just
happened naturally in my friend group
when I was a kid. Like there were some
kids who were more developed and more
athletic or better at this or better at
that. And we just kind of all fell into
place. It wasn't necessarily about being
at the apex or being at the bottom.
>> Was intention to harm.
>> Yeah. We we we sort of formed a team
>> where you understood that yeah this kid
was fast and this one was strong and
this one was clever and this one was
creative and actually there was a goofy
kid on our street who was always the
comedian. I think later he actually
tried to become a comedian or became a
comedian and everyone just kind of like
was like all right you didn't expect him
to be like the other kid and you didn't
expect yourself to kind of check off all
boxes. I wonder the extent to which
young males in particular nowadays feel
the need to check off all the boxes of
what it is to be a guy. Play a sport, be
good in school, be, you know, whatever.
>> Well, that's again the developmental
thing. And I think what happens is that
in, you know, you watch kids play in
kindergarten, they're not thinking about
this kind of stuff. Although it's it's
it's seek it's sinking in or it's uh
seeping in. What's the word? Um I was in
a school recently uh and a boy raised
his hand that he was in the blue
quadrant of our mood meter and he was
feeling down or sad and I said is do you
need anything right now? And he said no.
And I got I got kind of like taken by
surprise and I said you know you sure
you we can talk about it. He's like I
don't want to bother you sir.
And that was a eye openener for me, you
know, that already like his emotions
were a nuisance and that's what I want
to make sure that we address. No one's
emotion should be a burden. A kid should
be able to talk about it and deal with
it. We want that kid to be a good
learner. We want that kid to be a good
friend. And if he's already suppressing,
denying, ignoring, you know, in
kindergarten, it's not going to be a
pretty ride. And those things change
developmentally.
Um, kids are much more comfortable
talking to each other about their
feelings in elementary school and middle
school. You know, it starts getting, you
know, I got to look around and again
with the homophobia piece. And in high
school, you see um less and less
touching, you know, or, you know, kind
of the the the kind of friendship kind
of stuff that you might have seen early
on. And that goes back to the, you know,
the things that we were kind of chatting
about toxic masculinity, kind of this
manosphere.
And again, you know, my hope is that we
rethink child development. We have spent
so much time thinking about some of the
unnecessary things. You know, reading
and writing and arithmetic obviously are
important.
But if you don't recognize that how we
feel and how we deal with our feelings
is going to drive,
the quality of your relationships,
your well-being,
your ability to deal with life's ups and
downs and the harsh feedback you're
going to get in life. Um, and
ultimately, you know, having your dreams
come true. You know, it's interesting as
someone who works at a university where
everyone has perfect SAT scores.
Everyone has gradepoint averages that
are better than mine were. Everyone
plays an instrument I never heard of
before. Everyone has done everything to
get into this place. And so I have like
700, 800 students right there. And I
look at them all and I'm like, guess
what?
Your SAT scores have no predictive
validity.
None. You can't remember it's range
restriction. Mhm.
>> It's like b all basketball players are
tall. Height is not going to make or
break your your basketball performance.
Same thing applies in a room filled with
people with, you know, high academic
performance. And then all right, well,
what is the predictor?
Well, obviously it's going to be
something else. And then we start
thinking about, well, what are the
attributes
that employers are looking for?
Right now, it's not technical skills as
much as it used to be. right now it's
like can this person like take feedback
well can this person you know lead a
team and people will want to be around
that person I found in my research for
example that managers and leaders who
are good co-regulators
that for example during the pandemic I
did this longitudinal study and I found
that
in schools in particular where I do a
lot of work that when a teacher
perceived their leader
as both self-regulated
and who is good at co-regulating. So
what that means is that like I'm looking
at you right now. I'm thinking, okay,
you know, it feels like the world's
coming to an end. Are you going to fall
apart or are you going to make it?
That's number one. Number two is are you
going to be there for me? Are you going
to be able to support me and deal with
the chaos that I've got to deal with?
And what we found in our research is
that highly predictive of the culture of
a school, highly predictive of burnout,
highly predictive of job satisfaction,
frustration levels were 40% lower in
schools where there were leaders with
these skills. That's what people are
looking for these days more so than
anything else, you know, more so than
beforehand. I feel like the word that
comes to mind is is calibration. And in
anticipation of today's discussion, I I
I was speaking to a friend and I said,
you know, where are you at with uh kind
of um men expressing emotions, you know,
and and you know, she said, "Well, I've
seen you cry." And I was like, "Yeah,
you know," she said, "It can be
beautiful." Like, you know, there you
hear that, right? It can be beautiful.
And I said, "But when is a man
expressing emotion um a problem for
you?" like and assuming it's not like
outward anger or abuse or you know his
sadness
>> okay was the example I gave
>> and she said if he gets very sad about
things that happen a lot
it makes it hard to imagine that uh how
he would hold it together if really big
stuff happened and so it's it's exactly
what you described in the workplace
right this notion of calibration so uh
let's say I'm okay with people
expressing their emotions
crying when they're sad, etc. But if
that's happening a lot under everyday
conditions, I could imagine, let's say
you're in work or a relationship with
this person, and you think, well,
goodness, like people die, right? You
know, more I'm 50 now. People die as you
get older. More and more people die.
This just kind of the way it works.
>> What's going to happen then? I think
there's this underlying question which
is, are you going to be available for
all the other things we depend on each
other for? And this could be romantic
relationship. It could be in the
workplace. So I I do wonder whether or
not people are trying to work out so
what people are calibrated to like
trying to understand somebody's I don't
want to say emotional set point but when
they're able to you know just pack it
down and deal with it on their own later
or whether it really needs to become the
focus like just to just quickly layer in
another example. I have a friend who
runs a big scientific laboratory. their
laboratory gathered together and did a
presentation for this lab director and
had created a statistical bubble map of
their experience of being in the lab.
And there was a giant bubble in the
middle that just said stress.
And they invited someone from HR. And
the whole idea here was to let the boss
know that they were really stressed out.
And I said, "Let me guess. You were
probably thinking he came up in a very,
very hard branch of science." And I
said, "Let me guess. you're probably
thinking what happened to science he
said he said for a little while and then
I figured well this is the next
generation I have to work with this so
they were calibrated to different set
points and I could imagine that's hard
across generations but even within
generation that's got to be really
really tricky so you're all about
measurement
>> creating actionable tools is there a
language around this is there a way that
we can yes learn to process and deal
with our emotions express our emotions
in a more healthy way. Also,
understanding of other people's emotion
calibration point.
>> A couple of things. One is that going
back to the kind of partner leader
position is
I think the confusion that people have
again going back to vulnerability and
emotion dysregulation is that me being
vulnerable or me sharing that I'm
anxious or overwhelmed or afraid means
that I'm weak. And I think what leaders
need to do is recognize like during the
pandemic, I never forget this, like we
the university shut down. Everything was
freaking out. I knew my team was freaked
out. They were stressed out about their
jobs. They were dealing with being
parents and also being employees and
working from home and all that stuff.
Here I was like the head of the
emotional intelligence lab and like,
"How you doing, Mark?" And I'm like,
"Great. Everything's fine." And
meanwhile, I'm like, "I hate my life and
I hate everybody around me, you you
know, I had this my mother-in-law, you
know, that story, she was stuck with me.
And um and then I realized one day like
I'm being a terrible role model. I'm not
being authentic
and I'm not demonstrating the skill. So,
I decided to be really honest and say,
I'm going to be frank. It's tough right
now, but here's what I'm doing. I'm
going for that walk every day at 5:00. I
can't go to my hot yoga class, but guess
what? I'm I found new workouts online
that I'm doing and I'm doing X Y and Z.
So the point is is that I think
vulnerability that's like sharing and
like you know spewing out all the fears
that you have is not helpful when it's
not accompanied by the strategy.
>> And that's the key is that I'm feeling
this way but here's what I'm doing about
it. That's what a role model is. And
that's what a parent needs to do. The
parent, you know, has to come home and
say, you know, I can imagine this like
you're a dad and you're trying to be a
role model for your kid. And here's my
dad. I My dad would have a hard day at
work. Daddy, let's play. Son, leave me
alone. Done. Like that was the end of
it. As opposed to
dad comes home. Daddy, let's play. son,
you know, you have to realize I have to
just tell you something. I just had a
really rough day at work. I actually got
into a fight with a colleague of mine.
Didn't go well. And I said something
that I really feel bad about. And so,
daddy just needs a little bit of time to
just process that, to just think about
what I can say tomorrow to kind of help
my relationship. And if you don't mind,
I need that time right now. I love you
and we'll play later, but right now I'm
just not in the right space for it.
Okay, son.
Okay, Dad. All right, let's stop there.
What did I just teach my son or daughter
about feelings? All right, I'm a dude.
I'm a dad who has feelings. I am someone
who makes mistakes. I say things that I
regret. I reflect on the things that I
make mistakes about. I problem solve
about the things that I make mistakes
about. I need time to, you know, recoup,
you know, my energy and then I can come
back and be with you. How much time did
that take? seconds.
>> Yeah. But how many of us, you know, are
around people that can process emotion
that way, that have the capacity to say,
"I'm in a dark place. Things didn't go
well. I made a mistake. I feel bad about
it. I need to strategize and then we'll
come back and be together." What happens
to most of us, we're activated like I'm
pissed off at the person at work and I
project it on everybody else that's, you
know, in my next situation. And the
power of emotional self-awareness, going
back to what we started with, and the
power of emotion regulation,
is that I notice that there's a shift. I
notice that I'm feeling this anger, this
frustration. I'm about to go into a new
environment with my family, and I know
because I'm emotionally intelligent that
it's not going to be pretty if I don't
process that emotion before I move into
the next situation. So, what I'm going
to do is I'm going to take a breath. I'm
going to take what I call a meta moment.
I'm going to pause. I'm going to take a
breath. I'm going to think about the
best version of Mark, the father I want
to be, the husband I want to be, and
then I'm going to open the door and
arrive through that lens. That's what
this work is about. That's what
people need to learn.
I'm fascinated by time perception and I
feel like the human brain is so
incredible at being in the moment and
also getting ahead and thinking behind.
And what you're really talking about is
projecting into the future in a healthy
way. Not not future tripping as they
call it, but in a healthy way. And I
think that I mean, broadly speaking, I'm
almost embarrassed to say this as a
neuroscientist, uh, but you know, the
more limbic
>> uh, we are, so to speak. I realize
that's not really a thing, but the more
limbic we are,
>> um, the more in the moment we tend to
be, and it's harder to get that version
of oursel when we're relaxed. It's very
easy to be like well I can remember this
time or I'm going to project into the
future. So to some extent healthy
recognition of one's emotions it seems
healthy expression of one's emotions is
the ability to with feel but also split
off from the presence enough to get
perspective that the time perspective. I
mean it's all in a shift in the time
domain. You're not like I'm going to go
to this you know this island in the
Caribbean for a moment. although that
might be a good useful tactic. But that
ability to tolerate stress and and
segment a piece of one's mind and
emotions and go okay that's all
happening and I'm going to get like
right over here.
>> That is a skill. So the way I like to
think about it is that we have to move
from
automatic habitual unhelpful reactions
to deliberate
conscious helpful responses
because we become more automatic when
we're flooded with our emotions. We rely
more on habits and usually bad habits.
And so to build that space between the
stimulus and response like the question
always people say what is that what do
you do with that space? How long is the
space? I need a Some people say, "I
don't need a meta moment," which is one
of our tools. I need a mega moment, you
know, and maybe you do. Maybe you need
to take three loops around the house
before you walk into the door to get
your kind of parasympathetic nervous
system where it needs to be. That is the
key to emotion regulation right there.
We had um Richie Davidson on the podcast
and he talked about this myth about
meditation that it's supposed to clear
the mind and make you relax and he said
it's it's actually really about stress
tolerance. You're supposed to sit there
and resist the temptation to get up and
move like it's really stress inoculation
which I think is a really beautiful way
of thinking about and different way of
thinking about meditation. So do you
recommend that people meditate in order
to become better emotion regulators?
>> 100%. Especially because
if you can't be still, it's going to be
hard to access the good strategies. It's
a necessary but insufficient strategy. I
know that we're obsessed in our world
right now with breathing and
mindfulness, and it's great. Um, but
it's not enough. You at the end, I'm
going to have to have the difficult
conversation and regulate during that
conversation. I can't be in my room by
myself meditating. I always joked when
my, you know, I open my book with that
story of my mother-in-law and I would
take a breath.
It's even clear why you have to get the
hell out of my house, right? So like the
breath may help you deactivate, but it
doesn't necessarily shift your
perspective.
>> That's the mindfulness work.
>> And I want to jump in now because I
think even the taking the moment to
recognize you need to take this meta
moment is a mindset piece. It's saying
emotion regulation is important. I'll be
a better version of myself if I don't
walk into my house in this angry state
and project it onto everybody else. But
that's we've only gone through one of
like eight domains that I think are
important. The next is like you got to
know what you're feeling because
the feeling as I said in my formula
earlier is going to drive the strategy
selection. So that labeling piece is
really important. And I find that
people's vocabularies is just awful.
People, I'm fine. I'm okay. I'm upset.
Yeah. I don't think we did this last
time, but if I were to push you,
anxiety versus fear versus pressure.
>> Oh,
>> versus stress.
>> Uh, I've thought about these before. So,
but it ends up being hairsplitting. And
then I go into scientific operational
definitions. So
uh you know anxiety kind of a a
generalized state of too much
sympathetic arousal you know stress is
one or usually I'd add to that you know
one or several things that I can
pinpoint as kind of a source of that
elevated level of arousal. Um, you know,
panic would be if it you've gotten so
far outside the um time domain
perspective like that
>> the physiology overtakes and overwhelms
like I get into my scientist definition.
That's interesting because
>> a lot of people well some most people by
the way say it's all the same [ __ ]
>> that it's all one big yeah
>> you know you're you know technical
you're like well this is cortisol and
this is you know epinephrine and this is
this and that's all good too but in the
end what you're regulating often times
is the underneath the emotion and so
anxiety
uncertainty around the future right I
get anxious when I can't predict
That's really what deep anxiety is. I
want everything to be exactly the way I
want it to be and I can't control that.
So, oh stress is having too many demands
and not enough resources. Pressure
something at stake is dependent upon
your behavior. Fear is immediate danger.
So when I give you those kind of what we
call in psychology the core relational
themes the appraisals that are part of
those emotions does it make you see how
your strategy choice might be different?
>> Yeah definitely. Um,
and speaking of, you know, I doubt it's
just two bins, but I've heard once that,
you know, some people need to learn to
externalize and or to talk about their
feelings more, other people probably
less. I've heard this.
>> Uhhuh.
>> For sure.
>> I'm I'm friends with a couple and one of
them says uh she's she calls herself an
external processor. So, if something's
bothering her, she has to externally
process. And her wife is an internal
processor. And
>> so this obviously they've worked this
out and it's pretty cool to see how they
do it. But but I was like, is that
really a thing? External processor,
internal processor. And then of course
my gender biases show up. I go, well,
you're two women, so like that maybe
that language is used, but like in in
heterosexual relationships, it's
different, you know. And we laughed
about it and they explained like no, cuz
actually one of them turns out to be a
therapist. So she like no, she has many
male female couple clients. So she's a
couple's therapist. So, I got flipped on
my back with that one. The thing that I
I find that I I keep projecting into
everything I'm hearing. And and
>> I want to put the little asterisk here
and say that
>> the reason I share these like things
that are happening inside is I like to
think they're perhaps a proxy for what
some people are thinking
>> um or not.
>> But is that we really, at least in the
United States, we really are not a
culture that's clearly defined. its
terms, let alone its ways of being
around emotions.
>> Like this is not like my dad growing up
in Argentina in a certain era where sure
there was a range but um the culture was
fairly clearly defined. I mean here
we've got it all like I do
>> men expressing anger some people call
that passionate depending on what it's
about. Other people call that scary and
disregulated.
>> It goes back to your relationship with
anger. And so, you know, we construct
these emotions in our brains based on
our experiences. So, I grew up with a
dad who had, you know, you know, pressed
lips and red face and looked like he was
going to like take his belt off and
whack me. And so, my
perception of anger is probably
different than your perception based on
our upbringing. And that's just we have
to acknowledge that. Now, I could be
over reacting to anger, which is not
going to be helpful in my life. So, I've
got to learn to realize not everybody's
like your dad. Some people can be angry
and not aggressive. But that's that's
the emotional intelligence journey of
learning. If I had no cultivating of
skills, I would just assume
that's anger.
>> And that's not anger. That's one way of
expressing anger that I learned. And I
think people get caught up in that. They
get attached to what they learned early
in life and don't realize there's a
there's another way. It's kind of why
people often times get stuck with trauma
because they they are fixated on that
experience that they had and they
haven't learned how to reframe or
haven't learned how to compartmentalize
that particular experience in their
lives.
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to cla sample pack. So thus far we've
highlighted at least one thing that can
be very useful um for emotion regulation
which is the you know some short form of
meditation for stress tolerance that can
give somebody a a create a gap or an
opportunity in a moment to at least take
some time and regulate a bit. Mhm.
>> I'd like to layer on something else
which I'm hearing. I don't want to put
words in your mouth, but that I'm
hearing which is we should all
know our assumptions or our presumptions
based on our upbringing.
>> Correct?
>> Like we need to do this for ourselves.
No one can do it for us. No single
article is going to spell out the full
array of ways that one conceptualizes
anger or sadness for men, for women, for
straight people, for gay people. But
this space is actually worth thinking
about, right? Uh right now there's a
there's a little bit of a battle against
introspection. This is not
introspection. I want to be very clear.
Um that's a separate matter. But this is
really just what any really good
scientist would do is to know your
assumptions before you generate a
hypothesis.
>> I mean it is introspection. I mean
>> Okay, fair.
>> But just like anything,
over introspection leads to rumination.
>> Mhm. And so we're not recommending like
I don't want you Andrew to like be
obsessively compulsively checking in
with how you're feeling all day long.
That is unhelpful. It's bad bad bad.
>> Some people would say that's I need to
do more of that.
>> Maybe you do.
>> I I I don't I don't think so.
>> Emotions matter when they're going to
either help or interfere with our
performance.
>> That's when we have to check in. Most of
the time, thank goodness, they're in the
background.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, when you're driving, you know,
you're not thinking, "How am I feeling?
How am I feeling? It would be weird.
Like that would just be weird and you
don't want to do that.
>> But checking in with one's assumptions
based on our upbringing, I think would
be very useful.
>> Very. But that's the point.
>> And has that been formalized into a you
know, people love questionnaires. I I
think if it hasn't been done, I think it
would be amazing. About eight months
ago, I had this wild experience where I
realized I had this massive assumption
worked into my framework. So, I had
these friends and I was visiting them
and they called me upstairs and there
was a bird flying around and it was like
flying into the windows
>> and I was like, "Oh my god." You know, I
had birds growing up. Kiwi and Sugar Ray
Leonard were like my life before I hit
puberty and birds were my life. You
know, I loved birds. I love animals of
all kinds. And I I was looking up there
and this bird's just flying into the
window. It's not going to make it out
and it's just doing immense damage to
itself. And one of them said, you know,
he keeps flying against the window. I
was like, okay. And I tried to get him
out and I I couldn't get him out. Really
high ceilings. We didn't have the right
thing. And I said, you know, I'm just
going to open the windows, go
downstairs, come back, and check. And I
ended up going back. And um they said,
"What is he okay? Is he okay?" And I'm
like, "No." I'm like, "This idiot bird
is like flying into the window. He's
like, "This [ __ ] is going to kill
himself."
>> He got out eventually. And about two
weeks later, one of them called me and
said, "Listen, I really need to talk to
you about something. It's really been on
my mind." I was like, "Okay." And uh and
she said, "You know, I was really
disturbed how you reacted."
>> Uhhuh. I
>> like what do you mean? I was like I was
like trying to help the bird. Like, you
know, I love animals. I mean, I really
do. I mean, one of the reasons I like
doing the work I do now and said what I
used to do is I don't have to work on
animals anymore. I hated it honestly.
And you know, I understand why it has to
be done in many cases, but I hated it.
So she said, "Well, just you're talking
to this bird like he's an idiot." And I
realized in that moment I was like, "Oh
shit." I was like, "If you had said,
"Oh, that poor girl. She's she's flying
against the window. I've been like, "Oh,
the poor thing. Like, she really needs
it." You know, and I immediately
realized this like strong
>> sex gender bias that I had that if it
that if a female animal is somehow
damaging herself, like, "Oh my god, help
her, save her." And with with him, same.
If it's a boy, same thing. I want to
help. But then my my assumption is you
idiot. Like you idiot. Like like I
would, you know, and I realize I grew up
in a big pack of dudes and someone does
something stupid. You're like, dude,
you're an idiot. Like what are you
doing? But it's a it was actually to me
it was a it was a mode of affection. I'm
sure I I upset some people by saying
this. But
>> in full disclosure, I just had this
massive assumption and I've actually had
to pay attention to that going forward,
but I didn't realize I had that really
strong bias. Again, this is all going to
that mindset area of emotion regulation.
I mean, parents have that with their
kids. I can't tell you how many kids,
you observe a parent with their son or
daughter, doesn't it matter, and the kid
is trying to um like climb a rock and
the parent because of their own fears,
you know, oh my god, honey, be careful,
be careful, be careful. And all of a
sudden, the kid is losing their
self-confidence to climb the thing. as
opposed to a parent who's skillful, you
know, who checks their assumptions. You
know, I'm nervous. Okay, fine. You're
nervous. You know, you're probably your
kid's probably not going to get hurt.
Take a bre take a breath and maybe say
something like, "Honey, gosh, that looks
like it's really hard. I'm pretty
confident you're going to get there. Let
me just come a little closer to be there
just in case something goes wrong, but I
really do think you're going to make
it."
>> What do you think that's instilling on
the kid? totally different way of
thinking about it.
>> And so that parents assumption and that
person parents fears is being projected.
If they were more skilled at
co-regulating and recognizing my job is
to instill resilience in my kid. My job
is to help my kid feel like they can do
it on their own because that's what this
work on co-regulation I'm doing which I
think is so important is this
intentional. You're being super
intentional about supporting other
people and managing their emotions. But
the the whole goal of it is to support
the other person in being capable of
regulating on their own eventually.
>> Not codependent, not coddling, but
actually instilling the belief in the
other person that they can do it. I love
that. I I guess what I'd love to know is
is there a formal process
or questionnaire, etc. to learning to
understand one's own kind of the word
bias is so loaded the word bias is
biased but to really parse like oh this
is how I conceive the world in and
around emotions gender gender specific
emotions because I think that' just be
very useful because then it allows
somebody to do what you just described
and really know the difference between
helping somebody get to the point where
they can manage their
>> work with their emotions on their own
>> versus projecting our own beliefs
around, hey, this is the way it's
supposed to be done.
>> Exactly. Yes. There are plenty of
surveys actually in my book. I even give
people a list of them. You can play
around with that and just look at your
mindsets and attitudes about them and
you'll see patterns. I had no cognitive
awareness that I had this weird
relationship to happiness until I did my
own exercise. And it was eye opening for
me. And it's actually I've set goals for
myself. It's like Mark, people want when
they're applauding you when you're
giving your speech, let them enjoy it.
They're if they're applauding, it means
it was good. Don't be like, you know,
like breathe, be present, and take it
in. And actually, it works. It's a
beautiful phenomenon.
>> The awareness of our programming
can liberate us from so many painful
things.
>> Yeah, we spent a lot of time on this,
which is interesting because I don't
usually spend so much time talking about
these assumptions and mindsets and
beliefs. We spent some time talking
about the vocabulary words, which is
very important. And you got to be
self-aware. Anger is not the same as
disappointment. Envy is not the same as
jealousy.
Happiness is not the same as
contentment. Anxiety, stress, pressure,
and fear, and overwhelmed are all
different. And I know people listening
might be like, "Oh my god, you're
overwhelming me." But, you know, we have
our app that you've seen, the how we
feel app to give you that vocabulary.
And it really does matter. It matters
for communication. It matters for
getting your needs met. It matters for
choosing the strategy. But again, it's
not enough. So, you got to know how to
breathe and you have to do your
mindfulness work to bring the
temperature down to still your mind. I
mean, think about our minds nowadays. I
mean, they're just
the ability to process information has
dwindled completely. Just to give you
one example, we used to do like two and
a half minute videos for trainings.
People won't get through them.
30 seconds.
I This is why people aren't learning
anything anymore because you how you
going to teach an emotion regulation
strategy in 30 seconds? It's like an
Instagram post. Of course, that's
driving me crazy, too, because so many
influencers are My favorite one recently
was this very famous influencer teaching
about emotion regulation.
And she said, you know, I've decided to
throw away my anxiety. And so, she's in
the car and she opens the door and she's
like, goodbye anxiety. And I'm thinking
to myself like that door is going to hit
you so hard in the face. But yet 3,000
5,000 25 whatever likes and people are
like, "Oh my god, I'm throwing away my
anxiety." It's like you can't throw away
your anxiety. It doesn't work that way.
The quick fix thing is an issue. Then we
got to learn how to rethink our
feelings. That's the programming we have
to do. We have to learn some of the
things that you've spoken about on other
podcasts here. Whether it's the
cognitive reappraisal, whether it's the
reframing, whether it's the distancing,
whether it's, you know, having gratitude
as opposed to resentment and envy.
I mean, I I never had anyone help me
practice
cognitive regulation. Nobody ever taught
me there was even a I never knew there
was a thing called reframing and it's
saved my life as an adult because again
we go in with assumptions about other
people too and if you can say wait a
minute Mark is there another way to look
at this is there another story you can
be telling yourself around this goes
back to something we talked about
earlier we want to be careful about that
because in abusive relationships it can
become gaslighting right honey you know
you're too sensitive
no you're a jerk
I'm not too sensitive. You're trying to
make me feel like, you know, bad about
the fact that you're lying to me all the
time. Not helpful. And that can be
that's also reframing, but it's a form
of deception, you know, where another
person is trying to define your reality
for you.
Super scary. And we can do that to
ourselves, too. We can trick ourselves
into believing things that way.
Reframing is playing with this idea of
telling yourself a new story, but you
have to always be a scientist about it.
And that's the one thing about all the
strategies is that you have to come back
as a scientist and ask yourself the
question, is this helping me live the
life I want? Am I in a better
relationship? Am I better able at
managing my anxiety
applying these cognitive strategies or
these labeling strategies?
I find psychology fascinating. Uh the
reason I became a biologist, however, is
because um I got confused by psychology
>> and
>> it's too big of a field.
>> Well, and the field wasn't as evolved as
it is now, as structured as it is now.
But I remember thinking, okay, you know,
I could see the argument maybe even the
experiment for
healthy expression of emotion allows
that emotion to move through, allows us
to be healthier physically and mentally.
I can also probably find a manuscript
that shows that the longer for every
minute longer we focus on being angry
that our anger grows. And I don't know
what the answer is. I I um I sense it's
that's probably not the case. But I just
remember being very afraid of the
contradictions. Absence makes the heart
grow fine fonder. Out of sight, out of
mind. I was like, which one is it?
Exactly. And of course, it's both,
right? I mean, and that's the complexity
of the human mind. So, I decided to
think about cells and circuits instead.
And um served me well in my career. I
probably in my life, I I remain
intensely interested in the sorts of
issues we're talking about
>> now, including these generational
differences. And and here's my question.
Typically most work, school and other
environments are hierarchical in the
sense that the older people have more
seniority and more power.
>> I sense that nowadays there's an
understandable concern and interest in
young people's emotions and emotional
processing.
>> But I also get the sense from my peers
that there's this kind of fear of the
younger generation like they're actually
in control. I just got through doing
three two-hour long trainings because
Stanford understandably has you do like
harassment training and workplace
safety, workplace violence. You know,
you have to learn what the rules are.
>> And I was very surprised to realize that
all faculty and staff and some posttos
take this training. Students don't take
it. Meaning you have two completely
different views of what the rules are.
And this is not unique to Stanford. This
is unique to a lot of big organizations.
>> And um it's not even a criticism. I I'm
sure like everything at Stanford there's
a rationale but it's kind of
interesting. You would hope that there
would be a universal at least
nomenclature
>> just like we know what mitochondria are
here and in Nicaragua. It'd be nice to
know that agree, you know, anger and
disappointment, while those words are
spoken differently in two different
countries, that there's sort of a a
basic universal understanding of what
emotions are, what they're not, how much
comes from our past, how much is about
our physiology, and kind of how to work
with them. And I'm not saying this is
going to solve all the problems in the
world, but a lot of the problems that I
see out there are misunderstandings
about where the line is.
>> That's [ __ ] No, that's healthy
emotional expression. Okay, that's
anger. No, that's passion. That person's
a narcissist. No, that person just isn't
spending a lot of time thinking about
their own thoughts. And on and on and
on. I'm certain that one of the reasons
your work and your colleagues work is so
important is because we need a universal
nomenclature. We need an agreement that
there's at least a way to understand and
navigate this stuff. This is why the
work I do in schools, it's not like a
teacher comes to a training and does it
in their classroom. It doesn't work that
way. I learned this the hard way. It's
got to be a systemic approach.
>> The leaders, the teachers, the students,
and the parents need all the same
language to describe the work we do on
emotional intelligence. It makes a huge
difference. The superintendent can go
into the kindergarten room and have that
same conversation. We all know what
these emotions mean and we're all
thinking like scientists around
emotions. I want to just go back though
because something you said I think is
important to address and I wish I only
wish
that there was the correct answer to how
we should feel and what we should do
with our feelings. It just doesn't work
that way. A funny story about this. So
I'm giving a speech to500 police
officers who I don't think were told in
advance that some guy from Connecticut
was going to be giving a speech for
three and a half hours about feelings.
And so I walk into the room, it was like
out of a freaking movie. And all of a
sudden it's like and we're welcoming
Mark to talk about emotions and all of a
sudden you can see these facial
expressions and like some of the I mean
these guys were s people who can't see
me right now like slouching and there's
like you know their guns in their
pockets. I'm thinking to myself, what
have I gotten myself into? And so I
start, you know, playing around. I'm
telling jokes. I've got to figure out
how to meet these this group. And
the thing that struck me that I haven't
forgotten was one guy just stood up and
he's like, "I'm not sure I'm interested
in this." I said, "Okay." He said, "But
I am. I do want to know one thing, doc.
What's the only strategy that works?"
And I said, and of course, I'm a
psychologist. Like, it doesn't work that
way. There's many strategies. It's an
emotion by person, by context
phenomenon.
And I people are so desperate for the
right answer. I think the beauty of it
is that it's messy.
The beauty of it is that it's a journey.
The beauty of it is that it's a process.
The beauty of it is that we have to ask
ourselves questions over the course of
our development. Is how I'm living my
life working for me or against me to
achieve my goals? And we have to check
in with other people like our partners
and our friends and our kids and whoever
else and our colleagues. And I hate to
say that but the people who you know are
dying for the correct strategy. There is
no correct strategy. Every you know I
worked as a fitness instructor for 10
years of my life while I taught martial
arts. I saw so many people use exercise
as a way to escape their reality. They
just were on the treadmill for 10 hours
a day with an eating disorder who were
just thinking this is, you know, my
healthy strategy and they were ruining
their lives. The same thing with food,
the same thing with you can trick
yourself into believing things.
The goal of this work is to help people
pause,
consider ideas, and then you have to go
back and say, "How is my life? How are
my relationships? How's my work going?
etc. And that's where the the real
beauty comes out of the learning.
>> I'm using my checking back into my uh
developmental biases as a way to uh ask
questions that I hope are relevant to
everyone and now especially and one of
the things that I've observed is that
there seems to be a broadening of the
context in which
broader ranges of emotions are allowed.
online is a really good example of all
of it. All of it. Right. And I think
that the the judgments about well this
person is losing their cool and someone
say well you know so and so stepped in
front of his motorcycle for instance.
You know I mean these are the debates
that reflect all these developmental
biases and in some cases there's a legal
line and those legal channels by the way
are very interesting. Um there's a great
channel um it's a little too Hollywood
in because the guy worked in Hollywood
but he's a lawyer and it's called the
legal beef. I don't know him, but he
does these everyday cases of like his
someone says like it's illegal to film
here, you can't touch my camera, you
know, and he goes, "Well, that's the
legal beef tells you." And he gives you
exactly what the law says. And so I
think we tend to like that. I certainly
like that. Like where I like
>> thick black lines, clear operational
definitions, but it is true that for
instance, growing up, I I wasn't of the
mind that, you know, it's not okay to
cry. Okay. I just But it was definitely
certain places, certain times.
>> Yeah,
>> it does seem like the workplace and
school and online it's become either
more accepted or it just happens that
people are bringing more of their own
stuff. And I think one thing I worry
about, I'm showing my age here, but the
one thing that I worry about as people
think about their emotions without
having really good strategies to work
with them is that they lose the ability
to be effective. I agree because time is
running and I hear from a fair number of
friends whose kid is struggling because
they're dealing with depression or
they're dealing with anxiety or they
have a cannabis use disorder or they're
time's ticking and developmental
milestones are real. And so the question
I have is
how should people think about evolving
their own ability to work with their
emotions? Because you said it's a
process. It's a dance. It's a uh it
takes time with the need to really show
up and get things done in life.
>> Yeah.
>> Cuz you and I are two people who are
degreged and have steady jobs and and
it's we have space to think about this
stuff.
>> Well, we do. And I always tell people
that uh like for example there's a
school I won't mention his name cuz this
is not a good story uh post the election
this past election wrote a note to every
student and said we recognize that some
of you may be feeling overwhelmed by
your feelings and if you need to take
the day off it's okay. I almost had a
conipion about that. I was that's my
father speaking conipion but I was like
I cannot believe this is that they
weren't a school that I work with. I
wanted to call the head of that school
and say like this is the worst advice
you can give people. People have to
learn how to live with difficult
feelings. And if we're going to give
excuses to people to like, you know,
they can just like I'm overwhelmed by
what's happened and not be able to
process it and manage it and move
forward in their life, we're going to
create a generation of very weak people.
So, I couldn't agree more. And that's
not what this work is about. Like that's
the confusion. It's been politicized in
many ways sometimes. And there's groups
of people now that say this is you're
making kids fragile by having them talk
about their feelings. And I say it's
called emotional intelligence, emotion
regulation. We're not letting them like
sit in their feelings all day long. We
want them to recognize is that feeling
helping or hurting them achieve their
goals. If it's getting in the way, you
need to strategize. And the goal is to
move forward, not to be stuck in. I
think that's a huge huge issue right
now. And the same thing with discomfort.
Like it's okay to be unc. I mean,
my whole career is built upon being
uncomfortable. People saying, "I don't
like your work. Your your program's
going to turn kids into homosexuals. I
don't want to talk about failings. You
know, you're this."
>> I'm a psychologist, but you recreated
your childhood with the public.
>> Yeah, there you go. Sublimated. Um, but
you know, I love that feeling, that
discomfort. I sit with it. I don't try
to push it away. And I think, Mark,
what's your creative solution? That to
me is like the beauty of the work. I
don't get it. If I were if I just got
paralyzed, you know, by that, I would,
where would I go in life? I would be
frozen. We don't want kids to be frozen.
We don't want anyone to be frozen. I
want people to be able to live their
lives, experience the full range of
emotions, regulate effectively, and
achieve their goals.
>> I'm no psychologist. I've said that four
times. Uh, but I have the strong feeling
that your martial arts training prepared
you to be public facing because it is a
relationship, right? And I'd like to
talk a little bit about that
relationship specifically because you've
been this amazing ambassador for
emotions, what they are, how to work
with them in a healthy way, and to also
still show up in life, to not
>> necessarily take the day off, right? I
mean, if you lose a close family member,
it makes we would all say like, of
course, stay home, take a day, take what
you need, right? But eventually come
back. You know, that's an important
piece too. It's an important piece too
to not um as uh one scientist I used to
work with say you know dissolve into a
puddle. He used to say when someone's
paper came back he said and if it gets
before you look if it gets rejected
don't dissolve into a puddle of your own
tears. It was that kind of old school
harsh thing but I think it came from a
place of care because you're like listen
it's not the end of the world and there
have been graduate students who have
killed themselves on the basis of their
PhD not going well. And I know stories
about this sadly. You have taken some
heat for both being a champion of this
process,
but also by not giving in to this idea
that we're all just supposed to take the
decade off.
>> Yeah.
>> Um and so you get it from both sides.
You're in a unique position. Um and I
feel for you because some people would
say, "Hey, listen. You're teaching
people to be soft." And clearly that's
not what you're I'm advocating for. And
people have also said, "Hey, you're
pushing us to like push our feelings
away." And there's a lot that we're
really angry about in the world. And how
can you be talking about this when
fashion is taking over, there's a war,
this and you know, and and on and on and
on and on on and on.
>> So, how have you just personally, if
you're willing, how how has that landed
and how have you decided to respond to
that? I love challenge and so you know I
wrote this piece for Time magazine it
was and of course you probably know this
but when you write an op-ed the
publisher decides on the title and they
like to be provocative so they called it
the overreaction epidemic and I got
slammed for it you know overreaction
we're not overreacting the world's
coming to an end and it does feel like
for many of us you know between wars and
everything else happening political
polarization you know does feel that way
for many on both sides
And I say
yes, but running around yelling and
screaming at people, how is that
helpful? Like where is the benefit to
you and to the other person to move
forward? And so to me, it just makes me
think more creatively about the work I
do. And the other side, you know, where
people have said that I'm now making
people fragile because I'm getting kids
and boys to talk about their feelings
and it's going to make them more
fragile. Um, as a matter of fact, I saw
somebody said recently that this work
causes kids to have mental illness.
And I was like, wow, that's a good one.
And again, this stems from
misunderstanding of the concepts. A I'm
a big stickler, like you said,
operational definitions. I want to be
super clear about what I'm teaching. I'm
not teaching
LA. I'm teaching you how to be
emotionally self-aware. Would you agree
that it matters to be clear about what
you're feeling?
>> Yes.
>> Thank you. Okay. So when you're clear
about how you're feeling and if that
feeling is disrupting you from being a
good student or being a good partner or
being a good manager leader, do you
think that you should use techniques to
help you figure out how to manage it?
>> Yes, absolutely.
>> Perfect. That's what we teach. It's
really clear. When you have conceptual
clarity, I think there's less confusion.
M what happens that people it's gotten
politicized
you know it's confusing around going
back to what we spoke about earlier that
this is obsessive checking in this is
prying into kids personal lives here's
the deal
a kid comes to school with feelings we
all have feelings from the moment we
wake up in the morning to the time we go
to bed at night even when we sleep. Have
you ever been irritable in the morning?
>> Definitely. Yeah, definitely.
>> And have you ever noticed that we call
it incidental leakage? It's not a great
term, but like you're irritable, you
really haven't processed it, and you get
maybe to the studio here, and then maybe
people are trying to interact with you,
but and you're not like the best version
of you.
>> Definitely.
>> Yeah, that's what happens. And so that
happens to a kid who's gotten bullet on
the bus or had a fight at home. And you
want that kid, like every parent does, I
want my kid to be a good learner, you
know, have good friends, etc. All right.
So now I'm teaching you a process,
Andrew, that before you walk into the
studio, I want you to take 30 seconds,
maybe 20 if you get good at it, to just
check in. Take a breath. How you
feeling? Gosh, I'm pissed off at that
phone call I had or I'm annoyed at this.
Okay. How do you want to be seen and
talked about and experienced in that
studio today? Oh, wow.
It's a whole. Do you see how like I even
saying that like it makes you like stand
still and like reflect? Well, I'm going
to be this cool dude who's, you know,
compassionate and um creative. Okay.
Well, what do you need to get there? And
then you walk in and all of a sudden you
have attributed the emotion to its
actual cause, which is that stupid phone
call, whatever happened. and you're no
longer going to displace that or project
it or take it out on somebody else. Do
you think that would be a useful process
for kids, couples, leaders to use?
>> Definitely.
>> How long did it take?
>> Seconds.
>> There you go. This is not obsession with
feeling. This is not, you know, this is
an opportune moments. You know, when I
come home from work, I'm I work long
hours and I'm tired and I'm irritable a
lot of time. I just am. I gotta switch
my mindset to be the best version of
myself as a husband. So that's what
we're trying to help people do. And I
don't want people to be confused by
that. I want people to be super I want
real clarity. It's articulating what
your experience is, recognizing that it
may be helpful. If it's helpful, you got
nothing to do. Congratulations. If it's
not going to be helpful, you need to
think about those strategies. Is it
labeling it? Maybe. Is it taking the
breath? Maybe. There have been times
I've taken 15 deep breaths and I'm still
irritable. I need a new strategy. I need
to call a good friend. I just say, "Hey,
Doug, can you like I'm really struggling
with this right now. You got some
thoughts?" Not a problem. Getting social
support is not weak. It's smart. Maybe I
need to take another walk around the
block to just decompress. Maybe I got a
really shitty night's sleep and I just
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I love it. And um I have two reflections
I'd love your reflections on. Uh the
first one is uh positive states and
emotions that are also dangerous. When
people are feeling over affiliative,
over comfortable, they sometimes say
things that get them into real trouble.
uh they either disclose things or they
um make jokes that later they pay the
the price for. Um this is I think maybe
not as common as anger and sadness and
anxiety but given that some very
prominent uh very very smart people I've
seen completely destroy their careers by
it used to be called tweeting. You go
this is crazy. this person, actually a
chair of psychiatry, I'm not gonna beat
around the bush here, was fired for
saying something that was totally, it
was actually inappropriate and lame and
stupid. And you just go, but this person
is clearly intelligent. They're the
chair of a of a Ivy League school in
psychiatry.
And you say, well, what happened? And
what was interesting to me were the
tweets leading up to it. You could say
he was showing his true self, but there
was this sort of like ease and comfort
around joking.
>> And there's certain jokes you just don't
make.
>> And so I think what you're describing is
equally important for not overstepping,
not um you know hurting oneself or other
people.
>> Activation is activation. So your heart
rate and your, you know, different
chemicals get released when you're super
excited and when you're anxious.
Activation might be the same. The
psychology of it is different, right?
One is like anticipation of like
positive things, one is anticipation of,
you know, the negative things. And of
course, emotions drive our thinking, our
decision-m, everything. So you know how
many of us have made a mistake when we
were too excited, when we were young.
You know, we won't go into those stories
now. Excitement
without regulation is not helpful.
>> It's funny because you tell that and
going back to the school situation and
that's a big problem with a lot of
teachers. They're like, "The kid is so
excited. They just they're going to see
grandma after school and they can't stop
talking about it all day long and it's
driving me crazy." So, positive emotions
can be a pain in the butt, too. And but
they're afraid that they don't want to
squatchch the kid's excitement.
And I say, "Well, let's talk about it.
What do you think? I mean, this is like
the easiest solution I I came up with on
the spot. I said, "What's the
challenge?" He just he can't stop
talking about going to see his
grandmother. I said, "Well, he must love
his grandmother. That's a great thing.
Have you given him an opportunity to
stand up in the front of the class and
just tell everybody how excited he is
and just let her get it out?" What do
you mean? You want me to give him the
like give him like the throne? I said,
"Yeah, I want you to try this out. I
want you to let him when he's he can't
stop talking about way to say, "Johnny,
I'm going to give you a minute to get up
and tell everybody how excited you are,
but then we're going to go back to math.
We're going to go back to science and
let me know how that works." And of
course, two weeks later, I go back and
visit. She's like, "You're a magician."
I'm like, "I'm not a magician. He just
needed an outlet for his emotions. Give
the kid the one minute to just tell
everybody how excited it is, but also
let him know that the expectations that
I have for you are not changing. Just
because you're excited about going to
see grandma doesn't mean you have to
focus. That's the magic of the work.
>> Be a channel, not a dam.
>> There you go.
>> I didn't make that up. I learned that
when I was a camp counselor in Yeusede.
You get a kid that, you know, back then
we didn't have concepts of ADHD. You got
a kid that back then you would just be
like this kid is he's out of control. He
wasn't harming any just like would not
settle down. You can't like just say,
"Hey, sit down." Or I mean that kid
would always be getting in trouble, get
sent home. So you give them an
opportunity to do something, but then
you have to like let them settle down.
Likewise for the kid that was more
creative and less physical. If your
entire bunk was a bunch of kids who were
super physical, that always would
happen, but then you find out this kid
was like had some some something of
value to share with the other kids and
then it would establish his place in in
this group. There's a very weird thing
happening lately online,
which is this obsession with the 90s.
Um, I grew up in the 90s, so a teen in
the 90s.
>> Um, and there's an example that I saw
recently that I think is really relevant
to what you're describing. It was a
picture of a classroom sitting around
listening to a radio.
I remember doing this. It was an actual
picture and it said when the Challenger
space shuttle blew up, we all listened
to it with our teachers because we were
listening to that space shuttle launch.
And then afterwards, we went back to our
lesson plan. We didn't process it for
weeks and weeks. And someone said,
"Gosh, I missed the '9s." Now, at my
school is a little bit different. I
actually remember the teacher going
around the room the next day and asking
people if they had anything they wanted
to share, and people would share their
thoughts. And then like one kid said
like, "I heard they found a foot." You
know, and then she was like, "Okay,
Garrett, you know, like settle down."
You know, like some kids were being a
bit morbid and stuff. Maybe she
shouldn't have done that. I don't know.
But there was an opportunity. But I
think that was the last it was ever
discussed. And we witnessed with our
ears. It's not the same as seeing it,
but we witnessed with our ears um a
bunch of people blowing up. And it was
true. It was like, okay, this happened.
This is tragic. We're going to talk
about it for a bit and then we're not
going to talk about it anymore. Love
your thoughts on the picture I just laid
out. What happened? What's happening
now? This kind of emphasis on let's get
back to when things were not as coddled.
Um, I'm just curious what your thoughts
are.
>> You know, we were talking about this a
little while ago. The world that kids
are growing up in now is different. It
is different world. I was not thinking
about climate change when I was a kid. I
really didn't worry about who was
president or not president and the
whatever's going on politically. I
wasn't thinking about, you know, wars as
much as people are thinking about right
now. Um, I wasn't thinking about
artificial intelligence and technology
is going to take over my career. So
there are real concerns that high
schooler kids tell me they're feeling
and it's really causing them a lot of
stress. We haven't created solutions.
We're not teaching them how to manage
it. We're going to have to learn how to
manage it in this world we're living in.
So I do think, you know, the challenge
is there. I just want to say one thing
that's related, which is this artificial
intelligence piece that is
obviously prominent right now in
society, which people are freaked out
about for some reasons and thrilled
about for other reasons. The thing that
I'm most concerned about is this is that
about 20% of adolescence now report
using technology AI as a therapist, you
know, as a companion. Now, do I think
you can get advice from AI about like
stress? Definitely. Do I think um it's
going to help a little bit. Do I want
people to be in relationship with a
chatbot? Absolutely not. And here's the
deal. When I was a kid who was being
bullied and like spit on in the bus and
my head being banged in the windows
and I came off the bus, what I needed
was a human being
to say, "I love you." A human being to
grab my hand. A human being to say,
"We're going to get through this
together." There's no way the technology
can replace that. And I would argue that
this this obsession with technology to
solve our emotional problems is
a symptom of
the thing we started talking about from
the beginning, which is this fear of
intimacy, this fear of connection, this
fear of being present with people's
emotions. It's so scary for parents to
be with their kids' emotions. They're I
never learned how to deal with my
anxiety. I can't deal with my kids
anxiety. I'd rather not know that
they're feeling anxious.
And then I said, ' Do you want your kid
married to a chatbot? And so
the real issue in my humble opinion is
that we are cultivating
more and more disconnection and I think
about this you know developmentally and
I don't think you know in general you
know I was stressed out as a kid and I
was I was at the age where video games
were becoming popular and I got that
first little football game I could spend
10 hours a day on that. That was my way
of not being in the real world, of not
dealing with my challenges, of my
parents not connecting with me. Then I
got a Walkman and then the internet came
and then I got email and then I got
social media and now it's AI. This is
just an endless trajectory of outside
influences that are pulling us away from
being in relationship.
And uh I think I wouldn't say this I
wouldn't say this publicly. this is a
podcast is that I never thought
evolution could move so quickly but I do
feel that way all of a sudden what's
happening now this chronic disconnection
and kids are preferring to text instead
of to communicate with their friends
there's research you know anxiety stress
and depression are increasing
consistently
and it comes back to
connection
and strategies
>> yeah a good friend of mine who's a
geneticist said it's, you know, it takes
a very long time to evolve a species. It
doesn't take very long to devolve a
species. You can crash a species very
quickly.
>> In terms of um people feeling
overwhelmed and saying, I can't do
anything right now because of what's
happening in the world. Uh I remember
when I was an undergraduate, the '90s
were a pretty peaceful time. I mean, we
had Gulf War and things like that, but
relatively speaking. And uh the
professor whose lab I worked in told me
this was in Santa Barbara where they
burned the bank down during the Vietnam
War protests. But he said that in the
early 70s uh very early 70s and and
late60s that you'd be giving a lecture
he was a young professor and students
would just stand up what about the war
in Vietnam and he's like this is a
physiology class we're talking about
this and they'd say what about and the
students would start protesting. So this
is not a really new phenomenon.
>> I agree. I mean, this was happening.
People feeling overwhelmed. People
feeling like the campus was theirs.
They're going to make noise. I'm not
justifying unlawful protest. I'm not I'm
certainly not justifying any kind of
protest where certain students are being
restricted. I'm fundament I'll go on re
I'm fundamentally opposed to that.
>> But this notion that people are feeling
overwhelmed
and young people are full of energy, you
know, and they want people to know how
overwhelmed they feel and how angry they
feel. But in the backdrop, the lines
moving the conveyor moving forward. I
agree.
>> But I think that in order for people to
feel like, and this comes from the
article that was written by you, uh you
quoted a comment, someone said, "We're
not overreacting, we're underreacting."
So, in order for people to feel heard, I
want to double click on that comment,
but in order for people to feel really
heard and and understood in their
reaction,
I think it's also important that our
society just can't sit around protesting
all day and and and we can't collapse
into we can't dissolve into a puddle of
our own tears. And I do want to talk to
you about the ways to that you're
formalizing this work because one thing
that I think is wonderful that's
happened in the last 10 years or so is
that we've moved from the language of
consciousness and mindfulness which I
think are great terms
>> of course
>> to long exhale breathing to the notion
that stress can be adaptive Ali Crumbs
lab it can make us better to an
understanding that there's a way of
working with your physiology to be
stronger and yet acknowledge your
physiology. I'm feeling stressed now. I
need to bring my stress down. I'm I'm
exhausted. I need to figure out a way to
have more energy, work on sleep, etc.,
etc. I don't think it's happened yet,
but I think it's starting that
psychology needs the same kind of
organizational principles so that people
can move past narcissism, gaslighting,
claiming everyone that they don't like
is is being abusive. And there's been a
sort of psychological
I don't want to say collapse, but I
don't think people know how to navigate
this space. Whereas I think mindfulness,
consciousness, and the idea that we need
to take care of our sleep, we need to
exercise. We need sunlight. You know, I
and others have worked very hard to try
and get people to understand like you
need to work with your body. You're not
trying to conquer your body, but you do
need to nudge it and sometimes push it.
You don't want to be that person 10
hours on the treadmill who's suppressing
everything. And I think where psychology
has been a little bit self-defeating is
that there's a lot of language
>> and it can start to feel like
this is a lot. I got [ __ ] to do. So
along those lines, if you are told, you
know, so and so's gaslighting me,
they're a narcissist. That, you know,
uh, fascism is taking over, and like you
expect me to not be outraged.
>> Quote, we're not overreacting, we're
underreacting.
You're a martial artist. You're a very
stayed guy. Where do you start? What do
you say to that person?
>> Well, I think we have to ask them if
they're being effective.
>> And so, is whatever you're doing leading
to the change that you want it to have.
And if they know about emotions, you
know, I don't know about you, but when
someone is yelling and screaming at me,
I shut down. I'm no longer present. And
so they're actually not getting their
goal achieved.
>> If they're asking me to do something
different or they're trying to help me
understand something, if they can't
communicate in a way that I can
understand it and I want to actually
listen, it's not going anywhere. So I
think that people need to recognize that
I'm a person who is both and. So just to
give you a concrete example,
our program ruler, which is the
school-based work that we do, is in all
the schools in one district of Harlem,
New York. 21 schools, thousands of kids,
the teachers, the leaders. The deputy
superintendent, Dawn, is my former
student. They're facing food scarcity.
These are really troubled families in
many instances. They're facing obviously
racism. They're facing poverty, but you
know, home insecurity.
Of course, I want to solve for that
problem. I would do anything I could to
make sure everybody has a meal. At the
same time, every one of those kids is
being dropped off at school. And we're
expecting that kid to thrive for eight
hours a day in that classroom. How could
I not teach that kid skills to thrive? I
have to. There's no obligation. There's
no there's it's it's my moral obligation
to help that kid be the best version of
themselves no matter what their
background is, no matter what their
circumstances are. It doesn't mean that
I'm not also thinking about that.
And I think that people in our society
today, this is part of that article, is
that we're so focused on the big change.
Many of us have very little control over
the big change. I feel blessed that I
have some control over the lives of
thousands of kids that are waking up
every morning and trying to be the best
version of themselves. But they need
help. They need strategy. They need
teachers who are well, who can be the
best version of themselves for them.
They need leaders who care about the
teachers. And so I think that we have to
find in our own way. I know my way and I
sleep well at night thinking I'm doing
important work to support people and
having well-being. It doesn't mean I
don't think about the larger issues. Um,
but I do think that the more well people
are, the better they're able to be at
problem solving around the larger
societal issues. I don't think a
disregulated society is going to solve
its problems.
>> I agree completely and I'm grateful for
the work you're doing. I um I feel like
that again I I just draw the parallel to
what's happened around sleep, stress
regulation, exercise, nutrition. I feel
like there's always resistance at the
beginning. Like what is this stuff? Like
I don't want a morning routine. I just
want to get up and do my thing. Like I
don't want to hear that alcohol is bad
for me. Like a I mean when I was coming
up in academia
>> like alcohol was everywhere. The happy
hour is it was a source of a lot of
problems. I was never a big drinker. So
for me it was like great opportunity to
go do something else. But if you didn't
drink with your senior colleagues, it
was like people like what's wrong with
you or something like that. I think what
causes a tide change is when first of
all someone creates a structure around
things that science shows work. You've
been doing that and I love that you're
taking this broader through books,
through podcasts, um, into the school
districts. We'll talk more about the
ways you're doing it, ways people can uh
incorporate some of this, but I think at
some point
a few or more brave individuals start
incorporating a structure like, oh wow,
maybe Matt Walker's right. Maybe sleep
when you're dead is not a good
philosophy. And now the mindset is,
well, if you sleep, you're smarter. If
you're smarter, you're more effective.
And so the people who are doing best are
incorporating a structure. And then I
also think inevitably what happens and
we're kind of edging up against this now
at least in the sorts of things that I
teach is a push back like okay enough
structure like we need some freedom. I'm
sensing that now people like how many
things am I supposed to do and the idea
is like you're not supposed to do them
all. You're supposed to do what you need
right and and I acknowledge that that's
happening now. Um, that's the contour of
sort of the areas that that I've worked
in and tried to share in the area that
you work and are trying to share and I
realize there's overlap. I feel like the
structure is there. I think great
examples of people, kids and adults who
are really not just succeeding, not just
getting by, but are like really kicking
butt
by virtue of doing the things that
you're talking about. That's what's
going to lead to a systemic change. I
think about Steve Kerr talks about
meditation and he's Steve Kerr. So
you're like, "Okay, people who like
basketball are like, "This guy's a stud
and he meditates." And so meditation is
no longer considered magic carpet stuff.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. For every one of these things,
that's kind of how it is. It's like
breath work. Okay. Like I know Wimhof is
a little bit eccentric. People like, "Oh
yeah, breathe. Exhale." That's like
everyone does that now. So no one's
going to be like, "Oh, now we're
breathing." Like, but how much time do
we have to spend breathing? And so I
think with what you're talking about, I
feel like it's central to everything. I
actually worry about our species if we
don't incorporate the sorts of things
that you're talking about. You talk
about, you know, the idea of
regulating is not suppressing. Like I
think the the concepts are critical and
the practices are critical. So could you
give us a couple examples of the
concepts that are just core concepts?
you we started off this way, but and
then maybe a few practical tools so that
people can start to think about this in
the same way that 10 years ago we might
have talked about like hey like you
think sleep when you're dead is working
for you but you're actually kind of an
idiot when you don't sleep and you're in
a job that requires you to be smart not
an idiot this kind of thing.
>> Yeah. I think firstly, you know, in my
book, I have something called the
dealing with feeling wheel. And this
goes directly to what you're thinking
about. When people are disregulated,
when parents are like dealing with a
kid, for example, who's disregulated,
they get desperate. Let's take a deep
breath. Every breathe, breathe. No,
let's go for a walk. No, let's cook
together. No, let's play a game. No,
let's do this. And you go crazy. That's
not helpful.
I'll give you an example for myself.
For about a couple of months, I've been
just I have so much work and I have not
slept well. The last week I've
prioritized going to bed early. I
prioritized like real dark, you know,
the darken room and like to I got like I
woke up today at 7:30. I was like, it's
a miracle like 7:30. It's like, you
know, it's the middle of the afternoon.
And I feel energized today. I feel, you
know, in I'm in a good place. And I' I
felt that way for like a week now. I
recognize I'm building new patterns for
my sleep. It's no longer in my wheel a
priority. I figured it out. There are
some days where my I just feel I can't
think straight. I'm like all over the
place. I realize that I've been maybe on
social media too much. I realize I have
like 85 things on my to-do list. And I'm
like, Mark,
you got to go back to your mindfulness
work. You need some breath work. You
need to just sit around. You need to
take that space. You need to get to that
hot yoga class. You need to do this. you
need this back into your routine. There
are other days I sit around and think so
lonely. You I don't talk to anybody
anymore and I feel like so like you know
whatever and I'm like I need connection.
I'm desperate for connection. I think
that's the way we have to look at it
that there are these components of our
well-being and of that are correlated
and are the same as what we do to
regulate our emotions. There's the
self-awareness piece. Am I am I at all
like paying attention to my emotions?
Right now there's that breath work
piece, there's the cognitive work,
there's the relational work, there's the
biology of it, the sleep, the nutrition,
the physical activity. Like for example,
one of the things that happened for me
in writing this new book was that I uh
became very very um committed to my own
fitness much martial arts was like, you
know, that was like teaching 10 karate
classes a week. I was younger than I was
in the best shape of my life. Then I got
like professor dumpy professor syndrome.
I'm like, that is not I'm not getting on
that stage looking that way anymore. I
was like, whoa. And I made this major
commitment.
And one of the things that happened to
me was that it became my go-to strategy
for my overwhelm and stress while
writing my book. And I remember saying
to myself one day, like, Mark, you may
not finish this book, but you're going
to be in the best freaking shape of your
life. And truthfully, it transformed my
life. Now, here's why I'm telling you
that story. Because in the conversation
with this friend Marco who is a trainer,
we started having these conversations
around
fitness identity and how it relates to
emotional intelligence identity.
And I realized something magical,
which is that
now at 56, it's been four years that
I've like done my four workouts a week.
I mean, I haven't really missed a
workout unless I'm like on a vacation,
but I'll still do something else. I
cannot not exercise. And this morning,
just to be, you know, talking about, you
know, coming on lab, I'm like, I woke up
at 7:30. I'm like, I got to get there by
this time, but like I I I can't work
out. I have to work out before I go to
Uber. Like, I can't show up not doing my
workout. And um I knew I would feel
better. I knew I'd be more present. And
I did my hour, you know, back workout.
But the point I'm really making here is
that
I identify as a person who exercises.
I I and it's like just who I am. My
vision for the world is that we
cultivate people who identify as well
regulated because if you walk into a
room thinking to yourself, I got this.
Nothing you can say can trigger me. I
can get through this or I can manage my
emotions, life is going to be completely
different. And that's why I end my book
with this concept that people talk a lot
about like be the best self and
everybody's talking about their best
selves, but it really does relate to
emotion regulation and there's good
research to support it that you asked me
for like a concrete like technique.
Well, this is that thing we call the
meta moment. And I cultivated this
technique with my colleague Robin.
She was a therapist working with
patients in New York City and she's
like, I teach them all strategies and
then they go home and they yell at each
other and I'm like, I'm a scientist
working in schools and everybody's like,
this is boring and then nobody wants to
do this. I'm like, the motivation is not
there. People don't see the benefit.
People they don't see that their life is
going to be better, going to make better
choices, have better relationships, etc.
So, what's going to make it a
difference? Well, as we know, between
stimulus and response, there is space.
Okay. Okay. So, what do I do to fill the
space? Well, the first step is I got to
sense that something's going on. I got
to be aware. Wow, that just triggered
me. Wow, that was not cool.
My automatic habitual response is going
to be who the f do you think you are?
Like, don't talk to me that way or
whatever it might be. Mark who is
identifies as the most well- reggulated
person in the whole wide world, the
feelings master, the emotional guru. He
has a process.
He automatically takes the breath. He
automatically builds a space. He
automatically takes a step back. He does
not go on that gut. He says, "There's a
better way." But that's not enough.
So now I have to think about my best
version of myself in my role as a
husband.
How do I want to be seen?
How do I want to be talked about? How do
I want to be experienced?
And my role as a professor and my role
as a presenter.
Different roles, different selves.
And
I've helped millions of people engage in
this process, by the way.
And when you build the space
to think about your best self, what it
does is it pulls you away from the
trigger and it brings you back to your
values.
And then through the lens of Mark, the
director of the center for emotional
intelligence, like he's a different
dude. He's a totally different guy than
Mark who grew up in New Jersey being
bullied and is triggered. Mark who's a
center director is like a you know Oz
you know the uh the Yoda of emotional
intelligence. Oh well how would he
respond to this moment?
This is a beautiful challenge. I love
it. And so my point is is that we can do
that for ourselves. We can help other
people do it. We can do it in a moment.
Ideally we'll do it proactively. So when
you go home or when you come into work,
you pause, you identify and you think
about the best version of yourself and
you enter in through that lens.
My favorite story about this
was, you know, we teach this in schools
and this one kid, you know, when you
know when when people joke about things,
you know they got it. So I'm in this
school and this teacher is like, "Mark,
you know, this stuff is, you know, it's
really funny." I said, "What do you
mean?" She goes, "Well, this kid was
being really really not being kind to
someone on the playground." And I called
him out on it and he came over and I
said, "You know, I need to know exactly
what happened." And the kid said, "You
know, Mrs. Johnson, I'm going to tell
you what happened, but I need you to
take a meta moment first."
Like the kid knew that if he if she were
looking at what he had done through the
best version of herself, she would
respond differently.
>> That's the magic of the work. Well, I
think that the language around meta
moment is something that I'm going to
with your permission, I'm going to help
propagate because I do think languaging
and labels is very very important in
terms of getting useful tools out more
broadly. You know, again, not to knock
on the mindfulness meditation work
that's gone goes back thousands of
years, but you know, it occurred to me
at some point like there's there's
genuine power for mental and physical
health in these practices, yoga, nidra,
etc. And I had to like have a
conversation with myself and go, you
know what, I'm going to take some heat
for this, but I'm not going to call it
yoga nidra. I'm going to call it
non-sleep deep rest so more people do
it.
>> And and I apologize, but that's, you
know, you know, there was a reason
there's a reason to say this is the
physiological side. You know, eventually
now we know you can just do long exhale
breathing, right? um principles the same
that languaging is so key for people to
adopt these concepts and they can't
drink from the fire hose. This is also
what I've realized. They can't take it
all at once. But you're building a
curriculum for people and and it's so
important. I I also I'm so struck by
this the link that you discovered and uh
and clearly embody of internalizing a a
a fit person identification. you know,
you're a coach of a team. You're not
going to be a sloavvenly coach. You're
going to show that you also could you
did all this and you could continue to
do it if if your students and your
players challenged you to, right?
Identifying with a certain emotional
>> maturity, regulation level. That that is
also key because for myself, I mean,
year many years ago, I remember
thinking, you know, I don't miss
workouts. I just decided I just don't
miss them to the point where sometimes I
probably should miss them. I probably
overshot the market times like, you
know, and I learned I don't train sick.
I'd now take weeks off every once in a
while. So those are structured around
that. So it's not push push push to the
point of self-destruction. But with a
having an emotional identity that you
see in yourself and and can live into I
think that's a beautiful thing. I mean
David Gogggins talks about having to
have the old gogggins and the new one in
order to be the new one because both
live inside his head. He sat in that
very chair and explained both of them
are in here, but he has to take actions
to be one and not the other every single
day. And I think um
as this language around what we're
talking about evolves, I do think it's
going to go really far and wide. I I
have a theory right now, tell me where
it's wrong, cuz it's almost certainly
wrong. that many people are very in
touch with their extreme emotions of
anger, sadness, um feeling like they're
just, you know, they're too woke,
they're too they're a fascist, like
they're just in touch with the emotions.
And then we have we're really good at
putting labels on other people's
identities,
>> right? They're a narcissist, they're a
fascist, they're extreme woke, but we
don't really think about our own
identity as much.
>> Yeah.
>> We're kind of lost in the emotions. And
uh political parties, people usually
know where they stand,
>> but what would this look like to come
up? Like I'm not asking you to do this
on the fly, but I'm asking you to do
this on the fly. Like like is should we
be thinking about emotional maturity,
emotional intelligence? Is there a word
that that like we can internalize? Like
I'd like to be in shape. I kind of know
what that is. I want to be a certain
amount of strength, certain amount of
endurance, certain amount of I want to
be able to run for the plane and not
cough up a lung. I also want to be able
to open the pickle jar. won't be able to
go up the stairs without pain.
I know I have a concept of what that is
for me. What is a label that works
really well that people can start to
fill in the bins of what it is to be an
emotionally intelligent
>> person? I think it's emotional
intelligence because it's again we need
concepts that are clear that can be
defined that can be measured and that
demonstrate predictive validity. And so
every one of the skills I wrote a book
on emotion regulation because that was
the area that I wanted to focus on right
now because that is at the top of the
hierarchy at the end. It's what you do
with the feelings. That's the regulation
piece. But to do that you need to
recognize your feelings, understand
them, label them, decide whether you
don't want to you want to express them
or regulate. It's the rule or framework.
Emotion perception. Yes, it's
complicated but at the end it's about
building relationships. I I can't know
how you're feeling by your facial
expression. You know that from Lisa
Felman Barrett's work. But I can make a
hypothesis and I can check in and say,
"Hey, did what I say land on you well or
not so well? Let's talk about it." The
intelligence is the courage to engage.
>> The understanding is, listen, because of
my childhood, I have a different
relationship to anger than you do. We
learned that today together. I see anger
and I I it I have fear comes in my blood
because I knew I was going to get hit or
yelled at or screamed or punished. You
have a different relationship with
anger. Anger still is about injustice.
Period. We have to agree that the
definition is about perceived injustice.
However, my relationship to that and
yours is different. Just like whether
you're gay or straight or by or trans.
Um, homophobia
to someone who is LGBTQIA
is different than to someone who's not.
I can't relate if I'm not you, but I can
have the the courage to have empathy for
your experience.
That's the understanding piece. I'm not
going to ever be fully empathic to your
life because I didn't live your life.
It's your life. So you can't understand
my life. You can relate to pieces of it,
but I can be curious about it and not
judge it. The labeling piece is having
that language. You know, what is really
happening here? What is the experience?
The expression piece is knowing how and
when to express with different people
across context. It's saying, is how I'm
communicating landing well? Is my
intended outcome a possibility here or
is the person going to just, you know,
run away? And then the last piece is the
regulation which is in the end is this
emotion helping or hurting me achieve my
goals in life. And if it's going to hurt
your goals, you need strategies to deal
with it. Life is difficult. I don't know
about you, but this journey and becoming
an emotion revolutionary ain't easy. You
know, now I got it's politicized and
like we were talking about earlier, it's
like really all right, come on. Like
what happened? Who was your mother?
That's what I want to say. Like tell me
about the relationship you had with your
mother.
I probably shouldn't have said that, but
anyway, I'm okay with it. It's all good.
Maybe your father, whoever. The point is
is that
I feel very confident in that what I
teach is easily defined.
It's measurable.
And I can show you my own and thousands
of other studies where these skills
predict the things that we care about in
life. whether it's well-being, whether
it's leadership, whether it's
decision-m, whether it's um just mental
health outcomes. And so it's I kind of
have incontrovertible evidence for the
effectiveness of it.
And so you can still say I'm not into
it, but you have to be educated first.
And once you I once you really
understand the value proposition, the
why behind learning the skills, I can't
imagine that every parent in the world
wouldn't want their kid to develop these
skills,
especially if these skills are going to
be the defining skills of who succeeds
and who doesn't. I feel like that's when
a culture evolves. And I'm just
imagining a future not too long from now
where the debate around, we all know who
we're talking about here. One group is
saying they're all fascists with no
empathy and the other side is saying,
"Well, they're so caught up in um
inclusivity that nothing's getting done
and people are being treated unfairly."
That's what the dialogue is, right?
That's the dialogue. And at some point
we got to go okay everyone like we
understand your positions but what are
we going to do? We got we got to move
forward. I don't know that there's going
to be a meeting in the middle for a
while. What is going to happen I think
is that young people will strive
hopefully or they'll give up. And I
think if the people who strive
incorporate these tools and are rewarded
for them then that will become the
standard.
>> Exactly.
>> You know it's kind of interesting the
obesity crisis was real.
>> Mhm. And there was also a discussion
around inclusivity and that has now
shifted in part because of the GLPS but
there's now this idea that um you know
being obese is unhealthy. You couldn't
say that five six years ago. I remember
during the pandemic a colleague of my
very senior colleague said we're seeing
people dying of COVID and it's people
who are obese and he said but you can't
say that publicly. He told me don't say
that publicly. And so now there's this
acknowledgement, right? Um that,
you know, physical health is in is
important and people are striving for
that more. And I think there's uh that's
a I think that's generally a positive
shift. It can be taken too far. But I
think that there's this weird moment
that we're in where
the name calling and the labeling of
others, it's not getting us anywhere.
the opportunity cost is that we're not
actually figuring out like what we're
responsible for. And I I'm pointing
fingers at both sides and I'm also
pointing fingers at myself because I can
sit here and say all sorts of things. Uh
but I you know clearly we all have this
work to do.
>> Something important about that is that
you don't know someone until you know
their story. Like I know a little bit
about your story now. You know I want to
know more but you know and you know a
little bit more about my story. And once
you know someone's story, you start
having more interest in them, more
compassion for them. You know, uh, my
partner made a movie during the pandemic
called America Unfiltered, which was him
and his friend. So, it's a gay
panameanian running around with a
straight Russian around America for a
year, interviewing people about what it
means to live in America today. And they
went to Trump rallies and Biden rallies
and they went into poverty, you know,
and they went into all over America. gun
shop owners and black moms whose kids
had been murdered by the police and
um people who wanted to become
Americans, you know, citizens and it was
a listening journey and it was a
remarkable on how I did a study on this
actually. But I showed people the
expressions of people and I had them
judge, you know, would you want to get
to know this person, how warm is this
person, etc. before they watched the
movie. And what we found was that u
people were very judgmental based on
race, based on if they were holding a
gun or not. And then you watch the movie
and you see the gun shop owner cry when
he's talking about his relationship with
his father and that the only way he and
his father could bond was over, you
know, the guns and you start hearing his
story and you're sort of like this guy's
a really nice guy actually. And then we
tested people afterwards and we found
that people had completely different
judgments of people after hearing them
and listening to their stories. And
that's what we need in our society. We
need more curiosity and less judgment.
And that goes to, you know, ourselves.
We'll be much more regulated. We'll have
better relationships. We don't have to
agree. I don't want There's no need to
agree. But there is a need to be civil.
What you're talking about are standards.
>> Mhm.
>> I think what you're talking about is
some standards of emotional intelligence
or at least
standards for striving. Because if we
say like, oh, there's standards of
physical presence and what does that
mean? Does that mean everyone has to
have like eight pack abs and be
perfectly, you know, and then and then
you have older people trying to reverse
their age and ending up looking like
like totally artificial and Yeah. And it
can go too far, right? Um, but I think
having standards of striving like every
kid does physical education because even
if you're not going to be a great
athlete, it's good to develop a
relationship to your body and take care
of it. Every kid should do emotional
intelligence training. If you're even if
you're not going to become Mark
Brackett,
>> you you can learn to regulate better
than your parents. And if it if you're
rewarded,
>> we love rewards, right? We're we're
obsessed with if we if the promotions
and the the money and the status, let's
face it, people care about that stuff
comes from being healthier physically
and emotionally. Who wouldn't want that?
>> I agree. And it goes back again. I think
I'm obsessive about this like being a
scientist about yourself. You said this
earlier, you know, you based on
whatever, you know, we won't have to go
into go into this right now, but like
working out is your big thing, but then
you realize, you know, like I need a
little break. I can take a break. It's
okay. It's okay to take a day off. I can
go walking on the beach or whatever it
is. But that's the reflection process.
That's you having that metacognitive
ability to say, "Let me evaluate my life
right now." like I could have a day like
without the gym. It's going to be good.
I can go have some fun with some
friends.
I'm the same way. All of this work that
we do is about that level of reflection.
I have to ask myself when I don't do my
workout, is this an excuse?
Like what's really under am I really
tired or am I just like lazy right now?
Um and that's the work. You know, I was
thinking about this as we were talking
that it's a process and you know this I
came up with this process for myself as
I was you know writing which with the
workouts you know in the beginning you
look in the mirror and by the way I took
photos of myself every month every month
religiously and the proof is in the
photos and then like sometimes I look at
like wow Mark you really did a good job
because I really got out of shape and I
was not happy with myself. I was used to
being an athlete as a martial artist and
now I have four years of photos, you
know, front, side, back every month and
you look at the day one and you look at
today and it's a completely different
human being. I have to look at that once
in a while because I still have weird
issues and I look in the mirror and I'm
like I'm like wait the picture tells the
truth.
But the phases of that are important.
The first phase is like can I get
through this? Can I like I can't do four
workouts, go from 3,500 calories a day
down to 1,800 calories a day. There's no
way to do all that. Just like you can't
take every strategy in my book and like
be obsessive about it like I'm going to
breathe and I'm going to walk, no, I'm
going to sleep. No, I'm going to talk
positively. No, I'm going to reach out.
You go nuts. It's a process. This is
life's work. Like the good news, you got
your whole life to work on it because
you're going to need it forever. So that
first phase is kind of just the learning
phase. like what can I like what's the
little steps I can take.
The second phase is like you start
seeing a little bit of changes. My
life's a little bit better, feel a
little better. I'm sleeping better. My
relationships are better. I'm more
positive. I even during that phase of my
workouts, I went through this whole
phase of negativity because I'm like,
Mark, you're married for 30 years.
You're 56 years old. Who gives a [ __ ]
about your body? And I would I I mean, I
would do like deadlifts. I'm like, this
is ridiculous. Like, I'm deadlifts at 55
years old.
And I would catch myself every time I
like Mark, this is what you do. Like
you're you are a self-sabotur right now.
You got to pause and you got to like
where is this coming from and how are
you going to get that self-sabotur self
out of here? The best version of you is
not someone who does just two sets of
those deadlifts. You do all four. But it
was so much work. I can tell you. But
the beauty of all that of like working
through the discomfort is that is that
identity phase because now it's not an
option.
>> And so if you just do it and it becomes
part of your identity,
you don't have those struggles anymore.
>> I love it. And that the parallel between
physical fitness and emotional
intelligence is not something I
predicted before this conversation, but
I I love it and I I'm certain that it's
resonating with people because it's just
physical stuff is just so tangible. It's
so concrete and look, I just want to
thank you for making the emotional
intelligence piece so concrete and for
laying out these steps. We'll obviously
provide links to your books.
>> I have a I want to play a game with you
for a minute though.
>> Okay,
>> you ready?
>> Okay. because one of my former uh
colleagues and I got together a couple
weeks ago about a month ago and uh we
decided like people are so disconnected
we so we took all the contents of my my
books and we made a game said you
actually when you have your party it's
called the point of connection
and so I these are random cards
>> and it doesn't involve an app or a Wi-Fi
connection
>> no you got to be with people
>> awesome
>> so uh there's your first card
>> what's the best advice a mentor ever
gave you and how has it shaped the way
you live or work?
Two pieces briefly.
The Mike Menser, one of the great
trainers,
gave me the advice to do low volume,
highintensity resistance training,
>> each body part once a week and train
only three times per week, maybe four,
>> never more than 75 minutes, but to
really learn to enjoy training extremely
hard. And I followed that advice for 30
plus years. And I look forward to
workouts, so I don't work out every day.
Um, amazing advice. And then the other
advice which is separate from fitness
comes from a guy named Bob Knight who is
a neurologist at UC Berkeley
who said figure out how much work you
can do each week consistently and then
find some way to reset yourself each
week that is not destructive. And I said
what's yours? And he said fishing. And I
I was like, "Okay, I've done a lot of
fishing because my mom's side, all the
men went fishing." And I like it, decent
fisherman, but I thought, "What is that
for me?" For me, it's hiking.
>> Mhm.
>> So, for someone else, it could be
something else. But I taught my lab that
I would teach a career development
course where I would pass that on at
Cold Spring Harbor during the summer,
which is kind of geek summer camp. And I
said, "That doesn't mean drinking, but
maybe one or two drinks." Someone said,
"Okay, fine. But as long as it's
non-destructive, find a way to reset
every week and just keep coming back.
And so both of those things were about
consistency and intensity. So two
mentors.
>> All right, last one because I think this
one is more relevant to our specific
conversation.
>> I thought you were going to answer a
question. All right.
>> What's one emotion you've been carrying
a lot lately that you'd like to
experience less often? Oh,
>> man. Sorry.
>> What might help soften it?
All right. Um,
I don't know the name of this emotion.
Maybe you can help me. I'll try and
describe it briefly. Lately, I've been
having these moments of feeling so much
love and affection for someone and it
like opens and then I go and then it
shuts. But it's not opening and shutting
because of them. I'm like, and I know
this feeling because in a different
version of it, I'm about to get a new
puppy. He's already picked out. He's
already like, he's waiting. And I know
the difference between what I just
described. And you're like, and I just
let it rip with the with the dog. Two
different things, person dog. I
acknowledge there's a fundamental
difference,
>> but I feel this sort of like
>> like I shut it down. So, what is that
emotion of closing down? I guess love
like shutting off to love is that an
emotion or did I probably just revealed
way more than
>> Well, love is a feeling obviously and um
but I think
you know we're going to go back to that
opening a little bit about that fear and
vulnerability like just allowing
yourself to be with there's something
that's uh getting in the way there.
>> So what might help soften it? Time.
Yeah, just be with it. Let it let it
ride.
>> Man,
thank you for that opportunity. Thank
you. I actually really appreciate the
opportunity. I hadn't thought about that
until I read this. Are you willing to
answer one?
>> Yeah, sure.
>> You're the guest. I feel like you should
speak last. I spoke a lot today.
>> All right.
>> Um Um
>> I can pick one or you can pick one. How
does the game work?
>> You basically you can go in circles and
everybody shares and you look for the
point of connection. So it's get to know
people at a party,
>> you know, in the workplace. Who is one
of your heroes and what does that reveal
about what you value?
Well, as you know from our prior
um conversation, my the hero in my life
was my uncle Marvin because he helped me
get through my very traumatic
experiences as a kid. And what I value
about him now that I think about it more
was that nothing I could say could
startle him. Nothing I could say would
make him run away. He would he was just
fully present and a listener and a
learner and provided steady support.
>> Well, clearly you've internalized that.
>> Uh Mark, thank you so much for coming
back. Your your work is evolving so fast
and uh you're doing such good in the
world and uh do come back again. I feel
like you're you're clearly on the move.
um and doing amazing things. And uh
again, I'll put links to your book and
your books plural and and other work.
But just want to say thank you as a as a
co-public educator um and as somebody
who's really doing important work in the
world. Thank you. You're a really good
man.
>> Thank you. Appreciate it.
>> Appreciate you. Thank you for joining me
for today's discussion with Dr. Mark
Brackett. To learn more about his work
and to find links to his books, please
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